above pix by Kea
below pix by Jennys
Wednesday, August 31, 2011
Tuesday, August 30, 2011
Open Forum - Back To Basics
Tuesday, August 30
TOPIC: BDSM - Back to Basics
HOSTED BY: Master Pyria Minor and Sephrenia Twine
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Alright folks... welcome to the discussion on BDSM - Back to Basics.
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Tonights discussion as usual is open forum... so please enjoy and participate.
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Tonights discussion as usual is open forum... so please enjoy and participate.
[19:14] Pyria Minor: However, since the beginning of time some form of BDSM or Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships have exsisted.
[19:14] Pyria Minor: However, since the beginning of time some form of BDSM or Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships have exsisted.
[19:15] Pyria Minor: Through some research, and a couple of migrains, I've found out that it actually did occure, but not as often as people suspect.
[19:15] Pyria Minor: Usually during raids from one encampment to another when hunters would forage for food and mates.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: Later on as humankind became more civilzed, cultures advanced. In many regions women where considered infuriuor and treated as such. Thought to be of low intelligence the premise was, only through strict discipline could they be controlled.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: so beating of your spouse or mate was permitted in every day life.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: Now moving further into time...
[19:18] Pyria Minor: In our enlightened society of today we know that women and men are just as capable of handling almost any facet of employment or job that needs to be done.
[19:18] Pyria Minor: In our enlightened society of today we know that women and men are just as capable of handling almost any facet of employment or job that needs to be done.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: What I find interesting is that even though mankind has evolved in this way, many societies still practice a caste system.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: What I find interesting is that even though mankind has evolved in this way, many societies still practice a caste system.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: Middle East, Asia are specific to this in current society.
[19:20] Pyria Minor: In the 1950's, women where tasked with child rearing and tending the house, while the men where tasked with providing for the home and ensuring an income was common place.
[19:21] Pyria Minor: However, private discipline was also something that was considered normal. Spanking your wife for not being proper as long as it was private was permissible.
[19:22] Pyria Minor: In nevada today, there is still an old law on the books that as long as you take your wife on the county court house steps, you may still use a rod on her for being disrespectful.
[19:22] Pyria Minor: All of these things in essence may be seen as part of the dom/sub community.
[19:23] Galena Thistle: can you take your husband onto the steps too?
[19:23] Pyria Minor: No
[19:23] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): The day someone does... all hell will break loose...
[19:23] Pyria Minor: children and women thoughout history have all been seen in the light of submissive.
[19:24] Pyria Minor: During the 1800's for instance, it was common place to have children soley for the purpose of working the crops and increasing the family name.
[19:24] Pyria Minor: So you have domestic chores and breeding
[19:24] Pyria Minor: All throughout history, you'll find one race has enslaved another for varying reasons.
[19:25] Pyria Minor: These traditional slaves where used for hard labor, teaching arosticrats children basic skills and math and reading, breeding and domestic chores.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: Some where used for the sole purpose of bloodsport. Case in point, Gladators.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: Women where either domesticated slaves or used for sexual purposes.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: whomever, whenever... without the the ability to say no or refuse.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: whomever, whenever... without the the ability to say no or refuse.
[19:27] Pyria Minor: In some cultures slaves are still treated this way in todays society.
[19:27] Pyria Minor: Though finding much information about it is like pulling teeth.
[19:27] sephy (sephrenia.twine) crosses arms over her chest and shivers
[19:27] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): u know i dont think i would want some one that way
[19:28] Pyria Minor: and I agree Harely
[19:28] Maxime (maxime.deezul): It is abuse...
[19:28] Pyria Minor: in BDSM it is the submissives choice to submit. Its also their right to know and understand the desires and demands their dominant is going to want before they submit.
[19:28] Pyria Minor: in BDSM it is the submissives choice to submit. Its also their right to know and understand the desires and demands their dominant is going to want before they submit.
[19:29] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): to me no hart no feeling no love to it
[19:29] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): to me no hart no feeling no love to it
[19:30] Pyria Minor: I fully agree Harley... emotional balance is necessary to help with respect and trust as well as love and devotion.
[19:30] Zev (zzev): but it wasnt meantr to be out of love it was meant to scare others to keep them in line harley like hamstringing to keep a slave from running off
[19:30] Pyria Minor: exactly Zev
[19:31] Pyria Minor: that is the trational means of slavery
[19:31] Pyria Minor: if you keep a population cowed, they wont rise up and you have almost free labor.
[19:31] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): so 5thats differnce between sub an slave
[19:32] Zev (zzev): to me is more a forced slavery and a willing slavery
[19:32] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): sub gives freely of there self slave no
[19:32] Pyria Minor: but if they come to realize they are stronger and able to rise up, then traditional slavery breaks down and often in history, the Masters became slaves to the ones they owned.
[19:32] sephy (sephrenia.twine): not within this lifestyle choice, i am a slave, and i give myself freely to Master
[19:32] sephy (sephrenia.twine): not within this lifestyle choice, i am a slave, and i give myself freely to Master
[19:32] Pyria Minor: but that is a choice you made Mine
[19:32] Pyria Minor: willingly and of your own free will.
[19:32] desperada: yes it is our choice still if we wish to be slave
[19:32] desperada: yes it is our choice still if we wish to be slave
[19:33] Pyria Minor: folks there really is no one way to be a Master or slave or sub.
[19:33] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes Master, sorry that was for harley Sir, the difference in sub and slave, within this lifestyle is not the same between sub and traditional slave
[19:33] Pyria Minor: No Harely, in this its the same.
[19:33] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): if they r takeby force
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): with threat of violence
[19:34] Pyria Minor: there are those in RL and SL that have that desire, yes
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): how can it be
[19:34] Pyria Minor: and arrange it.
[19:34] Pyria Minor: and arrange it.
[19:34] Pyria Minor: in essence its a roleplay if you will
[19:34] Zev (zzev): is a forced slavery harley versus now like seph my imp and many others here they choose it
[19:34] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): The art of consensual nonconsent.
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): i was talking about old days
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): when it realy happened
[19:35] Pyria Minor: well put decembre
[19:35] Pyria Minor: it still happens today harley
[19:35] Pyria Minor: there are traditonal slaves today in many contries
[19:35] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): but then thay dont give of free will
[19:35] Pyria Minor: Not as enlightened as we like to believe are we?
[19:36] Pyria Minor: no those slaves do not
[19:36] sephy (sephrenia.twine): if that is the life i wished, i could go to someone and give them my slavery, and then have them sell me, give me, away in the traditional sense, and then it woudl be concentual, but not
[19:36] Pyria Minor: There are those that wish that kind of slavery
[19:36] Pyria Minor: or submission
[19:37] Pyria Minor: there are Masters/Dominants/Mistresses that desire that as well.
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Is it wrong?
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Or do we each have that choice?
[19:37] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): have choice
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Is it abuse or absence of emotion?
[19:37] Zev (zzev): seems to me we all have the choice how we wish to be within the lifestyle
[19:37] Pyria Minor: on both sides of the coin
[19:38] Pyria Minor: exactly Zev
[19:38] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): unless.........ur taken by force and made slave
[19:38] Zev (zzev): there are as many ways of being what we are as there are ppl
[19:38] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I heard someone say today that "The Master might have the final say, but the submissive has the final action." We each have that choice, even those on the bottom end of the spectrum.
[19:38] sephy (sephrenia.twine): well put decembre
[19:38] Keaira Karas: i worry about those who want that
[19:39] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): sometimes i think the submissive is the master ,,,pokes em
[19:39] Pyria Minor: well Harley, lets take the middle east. In their culture, women are second class. Arranged marriages are common. Women are then subservient to their Husbands. doing as commanded or punished severly for not doing so.
[19:39] Xykiel: aye... it is the decisions.. that we as dom.. or subs make.. that determine who we are..
[19:39] Pyria Minor: is that consentual or forced?
[19:39] Zev (zzev): is how it is on big level in the orient as well
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in their culture it is as accepted as it is for americans to wear clothing of any style they want as long as it isnt public nudity in areas not allowed.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in their culture it is as accepted as it is for americans to wear clothing of any style they want as long as it isnt public nudity in areas not allowed.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: it is Zev
[19:40] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I'd call it forced... because not once did she choose it for herself... but she doesn't see it as forced because it's all she knows. She doesn't know that there is any other kind of relationship out there.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in a sense decebre you are right
[19:41] desperada: but if you took them away from that
[19:41] desperada: they would go back
[19:41] Johnnie Wendt: The rituals and rules in many of those countries are enforced by the women themselves.... based around family honor, shame and savign face
[19:41] Pyria Minor: but with todays communication and internet... they know and still subscribe to that practice.
[19:41] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:41] desperada: there being their choice
[19:41] Pyria Minor: yes Johnnie they are
[19:41] Pyria Minor: yes Johnnie they are
[19:41] Pyria Minor: very true
[19:42] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): Even if they know, I know I wouldn't risk being disowned by my entire family for something I didn't know for sure was better than what I was being subject to.
[19:42] Pyria Minor: but due to upbringing, religious beliefs, morals and ethics, they all still adhere to it.
[19:42] Xykiel: some do.. but there is a growing tide of dissent in those countries.
[19:42] Johnnie Wendt: Xyjiel... having lived in a lot of those countries I would think it is difficult to judge what is actually happening from a Western cultural viewpoint
[19:42] desperada: i would think they wouldnt feel safe or protected in any other practice and would go back much for the same reasons we choose
[19:42] Galena Thistle: I agree Johnnie
[19:43] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I can READ about something on the internet, but until I actually experience it, I'll never know if it's better for me or not. So it's a huge choice to try and make. Forsake their family based on a 'what-if'? Or stay and live the life they know and understand.
[19:43] Maxime (maxime.deezul) agrees with Johnnie
[19:43] Zev (zzev): know a woman in the orient that has told me point blank she would NOT go against the culture for her it is how is supposed to be
[19:43] Galena Thistle: As terrible as it seems to us, we can't castiage another culture's mores
[19:43] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): no
[19:43] Xykiel: i am speaking from things i have heard from people who have left those countries.. or still have families over there....
[19:43] Pyria Minor: I've been told that by several from the middle east I've trained Zev
[19:43] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): but americans tend to do that
[19:44] Jennys Willful: at the same time, just because we think they live in the stone age when it comes to human rights... what are we going to do? Bomb them till they behave nicely?
[19:44] Pyria Minor: tend to do what Harley?
[19:44] Xykiel: we shouldn\t... but all of us do to some extent..
[19:44] Pyria Minor: Lets leave politics out of this discussion please
[19:44] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): try to get involved in other cultures and change them
[19:44] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): ok
[19:45] Pyria Minor: We are a little of subject.
[19:45] Zev (zzev): bottom line there though if any of us grew up with that ideal would we think any diff?
[19:45] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): Right. I didn't mean to bring politics into it. I just meant... it's a hard choice for a girl to make... and so she consents to what she's being forced to do, because it's what she knows, understands, and deems as the safest choice.
[19:45] Pyria Minor: The history of BDSM and the history of Master/slave relations vary.
[19:45] Pyria Minor: I fully understand decembre
[19:45] Xykiel: okay.. sequeway back.. to bdsm.. .. with getting involoved in other cultures and change them.... is that not what we are... another type of culture..
[19:45] Xykiel: okay.. sequeway back.. to bdsm.. .. with getting involoved in other cultures and change them.... is that not what we are... another type of culture..
[19:46] Pyria Minor: in some instances we are a subculture
[19:46] Jennys Willful: but politics are an integral part of it, unfortunately...rthe moment we begin discussing slavery cultures that do not have a sexyal root... to try and compare poltiicial/economical or cultural slavery with BDSM is an insult to everybody concerned
[19:46] Pyria Minor: But I feel we shouldnt judge anyone because their view points are differnt or based on other information than what we have
[19:47] Pyria Minor: In some cases in history slavery was done through consent.
[19:47] Maxime (maxime.deezul) nods to Pyria
[19:47] Pyria Minor: Rome practiced consentual slavery in that any one with debt could sell themselves into slavery to releave it. With the understanding they wuold be used as a traditional slave until the contract was satisfied.
[19:47] Pyria Minor: Or until the slave died.
[19:48] Johnnie Wendt: indentured labour was another form
[19:48] Pyria Minor: There used to be in the dark ages, indentured slavery or poppers slavery.
[19:48] Pyria Minor: There used to be in the dark ages, indentured slavery or poppers slavery.
[19:48] Pyria Minor: Some feel so, yes desperada
[19:49] Pyria Minor: Gorean life is practiced in RL. Though the books themselves only have a couple of referrences to girls submitting freely.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: It is My understanding in RL Gor today, all of them submit freely.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: is this correct Mine?
[19:49] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes Master
[19:49] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): there is real life gor
[19:49] Pyria Minor: there is
[19:49] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): To some extent there is.
[19:50] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): i thought it was sl thing
[19:51] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I mean, you can't just run around with a sword and attack someone to steal their slave and such. That's still illegal. But a lot of Gorean aspects are transferred to some RL communities that practice it, yes. :-)
[19:51] Pyria Minor: The parameters of history give the overall view of what most people believe slavery is.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: However, in this lifestyle it has been redefined.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: Both in the community at large and individually, dpending on where you are and what you desire.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: parameters may vary from country to country or even county to county
[19:53] Pyria Minor: But the premiss is still steeped in history, beliefs, and cultural acceptance.
[19:53] Pyria Minor: If that makes sense.
[19:54] Pyria Minor: This is where the pit fall comes in... most that are new to this lifestyle think slave in the traditional sense.
[19:54] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): ok is gor is a life style
[19:54] Pyria Minor: only through doing your homework and really trying to understand what it is can a deeper and more fullfilling knowledge be gained.
[19:55] Pyria Minor: Keeping both the Dominant and the submissive, happy, stable and whole.
[19:55] Pyria Minor: and besides a happy submissive serves more willingly than an unhappy one... right?
[19:55] sephy (sephrenia.twine): healthy, mind, body and soul
[19:55] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:55] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): ABsolutely. :-)
[19:55] Zev (zzev): i would think so
[19:55] Pyria Minor: Now are there those that desire their slavery through fear only? The answer is yes.
[19:56] Pyria Minor: Should we judge those people, I dont think so. Why judge them, it only leaves the door open to ourselves being judged.
[19:56] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): "Your kink is not my kind, but that's ok."
[19:56] Keaira Karas: but i think there are a lot of people in this lifestyle for unhealthy reasons
[19:56] Pyria Minor: extremely well said decembre
[19:57] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:57] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes kea, there are
[19:57] Pyria Minor: some only know abuse and find this lifestyle full of those willing to continue it.
[19:57] Pyria Minor: so the cycle continues
[19:58] Pyria Minor: only through education and councelling within our commiunity can those people be helped.
[19:58] Pyria Minor: Or councelling through professional services
[19:58] Pyria Minor: But, you can lead a horse to water... so the saying goes.
[19:58] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): There are places that used to exist in SL, like Loren's Lair... who used to take in girls like that and try to show them that there is more to it.
[19:58] sephy (sephrenia.twine): i've talked to many subs/slaves that were abused as children, and we are attracted to this lifestyle, not always for healthy reasons, but, thankfully, some of us, turn it around, and work through our issues in healthy ways, with the love and support of our friends
[19:59] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): And I'm sure similar places exist now. :-)
[19:59] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): And I'm sure similar places exist now. :-)
[19:59] Keaira Karas: when someone says they desire to be treated as an object, not allowed to speak or think on their own...i see that as a red flag. something's wrong
[19:59] Keaira Karas: when someone says they desire to be treated as an object, not allowed to speak or think on their own...i see that as a red flag. something's wrong
[20:00] Pyria Minor: it can be a redflag
[20:00] Pyria Minor: but it can be just the most base and dark desire of a person
[20:01] Keaira Karas: i can't wrap my brain around that concept
[20:01] Keaira Karas: it's not human nature
[20:01] Pyria Minor: There are those that in RL hold positions of power. That desire to be nothing more than an object as a release from responsibility.
[20:02] Pyria Minor: Are there any questions on tonights topic?
[20:04] Maxime (maxime.deezul): Just thank you...I have found it very interesting...love to hear more...:)
[20:04] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): its a lot deeper than i thought
[20:04] Pyria Minor: The levels of this lifestyle are almost endless.
TOPIC: BDSM - Back to Basics
HOSTED BY: Master Pyria Minor and Sephrenia Twine
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Alright folks... welcome to the discussion on BDSM - Back to Basics.
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Tonights discussion as usual is open forum... so please enjoy and participate.
[19:12] Pyria Minor: Tonights discussion as usual is open forum... so please enjoy and participate.
[19:14] Pyria Minor: However, since the beginning of time some form of BDSM or Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships have exsisted.
[19:14] Pyria Minor: However, since the beginning of time some form of BDSM or Dom/sub, Master/slave relationships have exsisted.
[19:15] Pyria Minor: Through some research, and a couple of migrains, I've found out that it actually did occure, but not as often as people suspect.
[19:15] Pyria Minor: Usually during raids from one encampment to another when hunters would forage for food and mates.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: Later on as humankind became more civilzed, cultures advanced. In many regions women where considered infuriuor and treated as such. Thought to be of low intelligence the premise was, only through strict discipline could they be controlled.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: so beating of your spouse or mate was permitted in every day life.
[19:17] Pyria Minor: Now moving further into time...
[19:18] Pyria Minor: In our enlightened society of today we know that women and men are just as capable of handling almost any facet of employment or job that needs to be done.
[19:18] Pyria Minor: In our enlightened society of today we know that women and men are just as capable of handling almost any facet of employment or job that needs to be done.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: What I find interesting is that even though mankind has evolved in this way, many societies still practice a caste system.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: What I find interesting is that even though mankind has evolved in this way, many societies still practice a caste system.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: Middle East, Asia are specific to this in current society.
[19:20] Pyria Minor: In the 1950's, women where tasked with child rearing and tending the house, while the men where tasked with providing for the home and ensuring an income was common place.
[19:21] Pyria Minor: However, private discipline was also something that was considered normal. Spanking your wife for not being proper as long as it was private was permissible.
[19:22] Pyria Minor: In nevada today, there is still an old law on the books that as long as you take your wife on the county court house steps, you may still use a rod on her for being disrespectful.
[19:22] Pyria Minor: All of these things in essence may be seen as part of the dom/sub community.
[19:23] Galena Thistle: can you take your husband onto the steps too?
[19:23] Pyria Minor: No
[19:23] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): The day someone does... all hell will break loose...
[19:23] Pyria Minor: children and women thoughout history have all been seen in the light of submissive.
[19:24] Pyria Minor: During the 1800's for instance, it was common place to have children soley for the purpose of working the crops and increasing the family name.
[19:24] Pyria Minor: So you have domestic chores and breeding
[19:24] Pyria Minor: All throughout history, you'll find one race has enslaved another for varying reasons.
[19:25] Pyria Minor: These traditional slaves where used for hard labor, teaching arosticrats children basic skills and math and reading, breeding and domestic chores.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: Some where used for the sole purpose of bloodsport. Case in point, Gladators.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: Women where either domesticated slaves or used for sexual purposes.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: whomever, whenever... without the the ability to say no or refuse.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: whomever, whenever... without the the ability to say no or refuse.
[19:27] Pyria Minor: In some cultures slaves are still treated this way in todays society.
[19:27] Pyria Minor: Though finding much information about it is like pulling teeth.
[19:27] sephy (sephrenia.twine) crosses arms over her chest and shivers
[19:27] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): u know i dont think i would want some one that way
[19:28] Pyria Minor: and I agree Harely
[19:28] Maxime (maxime.deezul): It is abuse...
[19:28] Pyria Minor: in BDSM it is the submissives choice to submit. Its also their right to know and understand the desires and demands their dominant is going to want before they submit.
[19:28] Pyria Minor: in BDSM it is the submissives choice to submit. Its also their right to know and understand the desires and demands their dominant is going to want before they submit.
[19:29] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): to me no hart no feeling no love to it
[19:29] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): to me no hart no feeling no love to it
[19:30] Pyria Minor: I fully agree Harley... emotional balance is necessary to help with respect and trust as well as love and devotion.
[19:30] Zev (zzev): but it wasnt meantr to be out of love it was meant to scare others to keep them in line harley like hamstringing to keep a slave from running off
[19:30] Pyria Minor: exactly Zev
[19:31] Pyria Minor: that is the trational means of slavery
[19:31] Pyria Minor: if you keep a population cowed, they wont rise up and you have almost free labor.
[19:31] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): so 5thats differnce between sub an slave
[19:32] Zev (zzev): to me is more a forced slavery and a willing slavery
[19:32] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): sub gives freely of there self slave no
[19:32] Pyria Minor: but if they come to realize they are stronger and able to rise up, then traditional slavery breaks down and often in history, the Masters became slaves to the ones they owned.
[19:32] sephy (sephrenia.twine): not within this lifestyle choice, i am a slave, and i give myself freely to Master
[19:32] sephy (sephrenia.twine): not within this lifestyle choice, i am a slave, and i give myself freely to Master
[19:32] Pyria Minor: but that is a choice you made Mine
[19:32] Pyria Minor: willingly and of your own free will.
[19:32] desperada: yes it is our choice still if we wish to be slave
[19:32] desperada: yes it is our choice still if we wish to be slave
[19:33] Pyria Minor: folks there really is no one way to be a Master or slave or sub.
[19:33] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes Master, sorry that was for harley Sir, the difference in sub and slave, within this lifestyle is not the same between sub and traditional slave
[19:33] Pyria Minor: No Harely, in this its the same.
[19:33] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): if they r takeby force
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): with threat of violence
[19:34] Pyria Minor: there are those in RL and SL that have that desire, yes
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): how can it be
[19:34] Pyria Minor: and arrange it.
[19:34] Pyria Minor: and arrange it.
[19:34] Pyria Minor: in essence its a roleplay if you will
[19:34] Zev (zzev): is a forced slavery harley versus now like seph my imp and many others here they choose it
[19:34] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): The art of consensual nonconsent.
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): i was talking about old days
[19:34] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): when it realy happened
[19:35] Pyria Minor: well put decembre
[19:35] Pyria Minor: it still happens today harley
[19:35] Pyria Minor: there are traditonal slaves today in many contries
[19:35] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): but then thay dont give of free will
[19:35] Pyria Minor: Not as enlightened as we like to believe are we?
[19:36] Pyria Minor: no those slaves do not
[19:36] sephy (sephrenia.twine): if that is the life i wished, i could go to someone and give them my slavery, and then have them sell me, give me, away in the traditional sense, and then it woudl be concentual, but not
[19:36] Pyria Minor: There are those that wish that kind of slavery
[19:36] Pyria Minor: or submission
[19:37] Pyria Minor: there are Masters/Dominants/Mistresses that desire that as well.
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Is it wrong?
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Or do we each have that choice?
[19:37] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): have choice
[19:37] Pyria Minor: Is it abuse or absence of emotion?
[19:37] Zev (zzev): seems to me we all have the choice how we wish to be within the lifestyle
[19:37] Pyria Minor: on both sides of the coin
[19:38] Pyria Minor: exactly Zev
[19:38] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): unless.........ur taken by force and made slave
[19:38] Zev (zzev): there are as many ways of being what we are as there are ppl
[19:38] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I heard someone say today that "The Master might have the final say, but the submissive has the final action." We each have that choice, even those on the bottom end of the spectrum.
[19:38] sephy (sephrenia.twine): well put decembre
[19:38] Keaira Karas: i worry about those who want that
[19:39] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): sometimes i think the submissive is the master ,,,pokes em
[19:39] Pyria Minor: well Harley, lets take the middle east. In their culture, women are second class. Arranged marriages are common. Women are then subservient to their Husbands. doing as commanded or punished severly for not doing so.
[19:39] Xykiel: aye... it is the decisions.. that we as dom.. or subs make.. that determine who we are..
[19:39] Pyria Minor: is that consentual or forced?
[19:39] Zev (zzev): is how it is on big level in the orient as well
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in their culture it is as accepted as it is for americans to wear clothing of any style they want as long as it isnt public nudity in areas not allowed.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in their culture it is as accepted as it is for americans to wear clothing of any style they want as long as it isnt public nudity in areas not allowed.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: it is Zev
[19:40] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I'd call it forced... because not once did she choose it for herself... but she doesn't see it as forced because it's all she knows. She doesn't know that there is any other kind of relationship out there.
[19:40] Pyria Minor: in a sense decebre you are right
[19:41] desperada: but if you took them away from that
[19:41] desperada: they would go back
[19:41] Johnnie Wendt: The rituals and rules in many of those countries are enforced by the women themselves.... based around family honor, shame and savign face
[19:41] Pyria Minor: but with todays communication and internet... they know and still subscribe to that practice.
[19:41] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:41] desperada: there being their choice
[19:41] Pyria Minor: yes Johnnie they are
[19:41] Pyria Minor: yes Johnnie they are
[19:41] Pyria Minor: very true
[19:42] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): Even if they know, I know I wouldn't risk being disowned by my entire family for something I didn't know for sure was better than what I was being subject to.
[19:42] Pyria Minor: but due to upbringing, religious beliefs, morals and ethics, they all still adhere to it.
[19:42] Xykiel: some do.. but there is a growing tide of dissent in those countries.
[19:42] Johnnie Wendt: Xyjiel... having lived in a lot of those countries I would think it is difficult to judge what is actually happening from a Western cultural viewpoint
[19:42] desperada: i would think they wouldnt feel safe or protected in any other practice and would go back much for the same reasons we choose
[19:42] Galena Thistle: I agree Johnnie
[19:43] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I can READ about something on the internet, but until I actually experience it, I'll never know if it's better for me or not. So it's a huge choice to try and make. Forsake their family based on a 'what-if'? Or stay and live the life they know and understand.
[19:43] Maxime (maxime.deezul) agrees with Johnnie
[19:43] Zev (zzev): know a woman in the orient that has told me point blank she would NOT go against the culture for her it is how is supposed to be
[19:43] Galena Thistle: As terrible as it seems to us, we can't castiage another culture's mores
[19:43] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): no
[19:43] Xykiel: i am speaking from things i have heard from people who have left those countries.. or still have families over there....
[19:43] Pyria Minor: I've been told that by several from the middle east I've trained Zev
[19:43] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): but americans tend to do that
[19:44] Jennys Willful: at the same time, just because we think they live in the stone age when it comes to human rights... what are we going to do? Bomb them till they behave nicely?
[19:44] Pyria Minor: tend to do what Harley?
[19:44] Xykiel: we shouldn\t... but all of us do to some extent..
[19:44] Pyria Minor: Lets leave politics out of this discussion please
[19:44] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): try to get involved in other cultures and change them
[19:44] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): ok
[19:45] Pyria Minor: We are a little of subject.
[19:45] Zev (zzev): bottom line there though if any of us grew up with that ideal would we think any diff?
[19:45] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): Right. I didn't mean to bring politics into it. I just meant... it's a hard choice for a girl to make... and so she consents to what she's being forced to do, because it's what she knows, understands, and deems as the safest choice.
[19:45] Pyria Minor: The history of BDSM and the history of Master/slave relations vary.
[19:45] Pyria Minor: I fully understand decembre
[19:45] Xykiel: okay.. sequeway back.. to bdsm.. .. with getting involoved in other cultures and change them.... is that not what we are... another type of culture..
[19:45] Xykiel: okay.. sequeway back.. to bdsm.. .. with getting involoved in other cultures and change them.... is that not what we are... another type of culture..
[19:46] Pyria Minor: in some instances we are a subculture
[19:46] Jennys Willful: but politics are an integral part of it, unfortunately...rthe moment we begin discussing slavery cultures that do not have a sexyal root... to try and compare poltiicial/economical or cultural slavery with BDSM is an insult to everybody concerned
[19:46] Pyria Minor: But I feel we shouldnt judge anyone because their view points are differnt or based on other information than what we have
[19:47] Pyria Minor: In some cases in history slavery was done through consent.
[19:47] Maxime (maxime.deezul) nods to Pyria
[19:47] Pyria Minor: Rome practiced consentual slavery in that any one with debt could sell themselves into slavery to releave it. With the understanding they wuold be used as a traditional slave until the contract was satisfied.
[19:47] Pyria Minor: Or until the slave died.
[19:48] Johnnie Wendt: indentured labour was another form
[19:48] Pyria Minor: There used to be in the dark ages, indentured slavery or poppers slavery.
[19:48] Pyria Minor: There used to be in the dark ages, indentured slavery or poppers slavery.
[19:48] Pyria Minor: Some feel so, yes desperada
[19:49] Pyria Minor: Gorean life is practiced in RL. Though the books themselves only have a couple of referrences to girls submitting freely.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: It is My understanding in RL Gor today, all of them submit freely.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: is this correct Mine?
[19:49] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes Master
[19:49] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): there is real life gor
[19:49] Pyria Minor: there is
[19:49] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): To some extent there is.
[19:50] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): i thought it was sl thing
[19:51] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): I mean, you can't just run around with a sword and attack someone to steal their slave and such. That's still illegal. But a lot of Gorean aspects are transferred to some RL communities that practice it, yes. :-)
[19:51] Pyria Minor: The parameters of history give the overall view of what most people believe slavery is.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: However, in this lifestyle it has been redefined.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: Both in the community at large and individually, dpending on where you are and what you desire.
[19:52] Pyria Minor: parameters may vary from country to country or even county to county
[19:53] Pyria Minor: But the premiss is still steeped in history, beliefs, and cultural acceptance.
[19:53] Pyria Minor: If that makes sense.
[19:54] Pyria Minor: This is where the pit fall comes in... most that are new to this lifestyle think slave in the traditional sense.
[19:54] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): ok is gor is a life style
[19:54] Pyria Minor: only through doing your homework and really trying to understand what it is can a deeper and more fullfilling knowledge be gained.
[19:55] Pyria Minor: Keeping both the Dominant and the submissive, happy, stable and whole.
[19:55] Pyria Minor: and besides a happy submissive serves more willingly than an unhappy one... right?
[19:55] sephy (sephrenia.twine): healthy, mind, body and soul
[19:55] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:55] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): ABsolutely. :-)
[19:55] Zev (zzev): i would think so
[19:55] Pyria Minor: Now are there those that desire their slavery through fear only? The answer is yes.
[19:56] Pyria Minor: Should we judge those people, I dont think so. Why judge them, it only leaves the door open to ourselves being judged.
[19:56] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): "Your kink is not my kind, but that's ok."
[19:56] Keaira Karas: but i think there are a lot of people in this lifestyle for unhealthy reasons
[19:56] Pyria Minor: extremely well said decembre
[19:57] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): yes
[19:57] sephy (sephrenia.twine): yes kea, there are
[19:57] Pyria Minor: some only know abuse and find this lifestyle full of those willing to continue it.
[19:57] Pyria Minor: so the cycle continues
[19:58] Pyria Minor: only through education and councelling within our commiunity can those people be helped.
[19:58] Pyria Minor: Or councelling through professional services
[19:58] Pyria Minor: But, you can lead a horse to water... so the saying goes.
[19:58] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): There are places that used to exist in SL, like Loren's Lair... who used to take in girls like that and try to show them that there is more to it.
[19:58] sephy (sephrenia.twine): i've talked to many subs/slaves that were abused as children, and we are attracted to this lifestyle, not always for healthy reasons, but, thankfully, some of us, turn it around, and work through our issues in healthy ways, with the love and support of our friends
[19:59] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): And I'm sure similar places exist now. :-)
[19:59] đєςємßяє đємєţяα (decembredemetra): And I'm sure similar places exist now. :-)
[19:59] Keaira Karas: when someone says they desire to be treated as an object, not allowed to speak or think on their own...i see that as a red flag. something's wrong
[19:59] Keaira Karas: when someone says they desire to be treated as an object, not allowed to speak or think on their own...i see that as a red flag. something's wrong
[20:00] Pyria Minor: it can be a redflag
[20:00] Pyria Minor: but it can be just the most base and dark desire of a person
[20:01] Keaira Karas: i can't wrap my brain around that concept
[20:01] Keaira Karas: it's not human nature
[20:01] Pyria Minor: There are those that in RL hold positions of power. That desire to be nothing more than an object as a release from responsibility.
[20:02] Pyria Minor: Are there any questions on tonights topic?
[20:04] Maxime (maxime.deezul): Just thank you...I have found it very interesting...love to hear more...:)
[20:04] harleylonerider Snowshadow (harleylonerider): its a lot deeper than i thought
[20:04] Pyria Minor: The levels of this lifestyle are almost endless.
Sunday, August 28, 2011
Stevie Nicks on the roof
Sunday August 28 - join us on the Dark Side roof for the hottest concert of the year so far... STEVIE NICKS!
Gypsy clothing and witchy accoutrements optional!
Saturday, August 20, 2011
Christmas in August - Saturday August 20
December is still an eternity away, so let's get into the festive spirit early and celebrate Christmas in August!
Join us at the Dark Side ballroom for a night of Sinful Santas, raunchy reindeer and, of course, lots of unwrapping!!!!!
Saturday August 20 at 7pm
Thursday, August 18, 2011
Congratulations Abby and Zev
party photos by Sophiekittycat
As Abby and Zev celebrate their special day, a special invite goes out to all their SL friends to come and witness the ceremony... and then it'll be time to dance the night away.....
The ceremony starts at 6... the dancing straight afterwards.
See you there!
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