Open Forum Discussion, September 24 2010

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Friday, September 24, 2010
TOPIC: Mistakes, Consequences, Recovery
HOSTED BY: Inanna Fairlady

[18:03] Inanna Fairlady: I've researched and thought about the topic. I'll introduce it, and periodically I'll insert information and opinion of my own. Otherwise, I'm guiding a discussion between you lot. :)

[18:07] Inanna Fairlady: Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes the consequences are minimal, and can be easily laughed off. Sometimes they're catastrophic and we need to work hard to deal with them. Fortunately, most mistakes are small. It's from the small mistakes that we learn how to deal with the large ones.

[18:07] Inanna Fairlady: So how do we deal with our small mistakes? And how does dealing with mistakes impact our BDSM? And how does it affect trust?

[18:07] Inanna Fairlady: I have a personal policy about mistakes, one that has served me well. But I'd like to hear what others have to say - both about mistakes, and about the relationship between mistakes and trust - before I charge in and start browbeating you with it!

[18:08] Inanna Fairlady: So who wants to start? How do you deal with mistakes? Can you trust a dominant who's made a mistake with you? Can you trust a submissive who's forgotten her safeword?

[18:08] Keaira Karas: I dont' trust anybody who doesn't make mistakes

[18:08] Naughty Later raises a hand

[18:08] Inanna Fairlady: Go ahead, Naughty

[18:09] Inanna Fairlady: And a good point, Keaira. After Naughty's spoken, would you please share why?

[18:09] Naughty Later: everyone makes mistakes - recognizing that and not believing oneself to be perfect is important. as a dominant owning up to your mistakes and admitting you were wrong is vital. additionally, whether it effects trust depends on the type of the mistake, and the intent

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: I think the response to the mistake is also very important.

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: Not your response - their response. A response that's an attempt to cover up the mistake is a red flag to me.

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: An attempt to correct it, though... oooh, I LIKE that.

[18:11] Naughty Later: and sincerity - if i make a mistake and i apologize with sincerity, i expect that to be recognized - maybe not immediately forgiven but recognized

[18:12] Inanna Fairlady: How do you react if it's not recognised?

[18:12] Naughty Later: that would be a lack of respect, in my opinion

[18:12] Charity Shackleton: i think that's when you start getting into negative effects on trust

[18:13] Pepper Morlim: is it right, to be publicly beaten for making a mistake?

[18:13] Naughty Later: no

[18:13] Pepper Morlim: happened

[18:14] Naughty Later: as a dominant, my job is to decifer intent, and punish accordingly - expecting perfection, on either side, is unreasonable and setting one up to fail

[18:14] Trillian Mills raises her hand a little

[18:15] Trillian Mills: what if the act of a mistake is abused?

"ooops Sir, really i didn't mean to drop that drink in your lap again?
(or something like that)

[18:15] Naughty Later: thats where deciferring intent comes in, and sorry i dont mean to take over the discussion :/

[18:16] Inanna Fairlady: I think that's disrespect... I don't know what to call it. It's not a genuine mistake.

[18:16] Charity Shackleton: that's when damage is more apt to occur, also, i think...erosion, again, of trust

[18:16] Inanna Fairlady: Naughty, as long as the submissives will either raise their hand or PM me if they want to talk, go ahead and talk.

[18:16] Inanna Fairlady: Part of my job is to ensure everyone has a chance to talk. The dominants and the 'uppity subs' like me will just butt in, or will signal me. :)

[18:16] Naughty Later: i agree with you Charity

[18:17] Naughty Later: thank you, Inanna

[18:17] Inanna Fairlady: Charity: I agree. I also hate the feeling of being set up to fail. That erodes MY trust faster than anything else.

[18:18] Naughty Later: and just leads to more failure, and self doubt

[18:18] Inanna Fairlady: And being punished for a failure I couldn't help... ewww.

[18:18] Naughty Later: its a viscious cycle

[18:19] Inanna Fairlady: Although my dominant pointed out one thing. As long as he measures the punishment carefully, being punished for a failure can encourage me to take more care next time.

[18:19] Inanna Fairlady: What do you all think of that?

[18:19] Charity Shackleton: i don't think its wrong to punish...i'd rather call it "correct" for a mistake

[18:19] Naughty Later: i agree with that, generally i would punish for something that i knew was a mistake but could have been prevented - with an essay

[18:19] Charity Shackleton: but consequences

[18:19] Keaira Karas: it's true Inanna. it helps us be more mindful

[18:20] Keaira Karas: yes i think there's a difference between punishemnt and correction

[18:21] Inanna Fairlady: What would you do with such an essay, Naughty? What would you want them to put in it?

[18:22] Naughty Later: well, im a big fan of essays for all sorts of situations - writing assignments are the large majority of punishments i give. in a situation where it was a lack of time taken, or lack of thought, i would likely expect something relating what they did wrong, and methods in the future for their plans to prevent it happening again, and what they feel was the consequence for their actions

[18:23] Inanna Fairlady nods. I like that.

[18:23] Inanna Fairlady: Do you folks want to hear my four-point plan about mistakes?

[18:23] Charity Shackleton noda and agrees...i have had similar consequences for mistakes

[18:24] Naughty Later: i think writing assignments allow for a tremendous amount of self relfection - and as im sure we all agree, when a sub reflects, they punish themselves more than any dominant can ever do

[18:24] Inanna Fairlady shudders.

[18:25] Keaira Karas: that's so true

[18:25] Inanna Fairlady: For me, the four critical points for handling a mistake are acknowledging it, correcting it, checking it against other mistakes (look for a pattern), and investigating the root cause.

[18:25] Naughty Later: definately, well said

[18:26] Inanna Fairlady: Acknowledging it can - and IMO should - include an attempt to apologise. But acknowledging it to yourself is the most critical part.

[18:26] Inanna Fairlady: Without that, you simply can't do the other three properly.

[18:26] Naughty Later nods in agreement

[18:26] Inanna Fairlady: And yes, acknowledging the consequences.

[18:26] Inanna Fairlady: Anything else you all see in acknowledging mistakes?

[18:27] Inanna Fairlady: (It's one of the reasons I like the essay idea. It really, really pushes acknowledgement.)

[18:28] mikki Vintner: i hust joined the chat,,,but i agree

[18:28] Inanna Fairlady: Here's a harder one. Is a dominant responsible for a submissive's mistakes?

[18:28] Naughty Later: i think acknowledgement is taking accountability for it

[18:28] Naughty Later: sometimes, yes they are

[18:29] Trillian Mills raises her hand again just a bit

[18:29] Inanna Fairlady nods to Naughty re taking accountability.

[18:29] Inanna Fairlady nods to Naughty re taking accountability.

[18:29] Inanna Fairlady: Go ahead, Trillian.

[18:29] mikki Vintner: we should all....srive to be the best we can be,,,no matter what

[18:29] Trillian Mills: i think i would rather tell a Master about my mistake and deal with those consequences than have him find out about it on his own later.

[18:29] Trillian Mills: is that ok?

[18:29] Inanna Fairlady: I would say absolutely YES.

[18:29] Pepper Morlim agrees with Trillian

[18:29] Naughty Later: i agree Trillian, good call

[18:29] mikki Vintner: the truth is ALWAYS the best course

[18:31] Inanna Fairlady: There are also times when you didn't create the problem, or make the mistake, but you've inherited the benefits of the mistake. Please forgive me for being political here, but a classic example is that Australia was declared 'Terra Nullius' or 'empty of human inhabitants', and thus free to be occupied by Europeans.

[18:31] Keaira Karas: and it will go a long way in redeeming ourselves. the fact that we stood up and took respnosibility for our mistake

[18:31] Keaira Karas: a good beginning to fixing things

[18:31] Inanna Fairlady: At the start of this century, the majority of the post-1770-immigrants pretty much collectively stood up and said 'We screwed up. We're sorry'.

[18:32] mikki Vintner: once you start deceiving.and run that risk of being "found out"..all the trust is gone..and you need that for ANY relationship to work

[18:32] Keaira Karas: yes mikki

[18:32] Inanna Fairlady: Our politicians are finding that word very hard to say, but ... well. What do you all think. Is it our mistake to acknowledge?

[18:32] Inanna Fairlady: And can you think of other, more personal examples?

[18:32] mikki Vintner: no.face up tothe reality.no matter what

[18:33] Naughty Later: taking accountability for mistakes shows your character - individual, group, or country

[18:33] Inanna Fairlady: Thank you.

[18:34] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. So... what makes a good apology? :)

[18:34] mikki Vintner: as a recent example.and if i offend anyone.so be it..but the bush administration....built on deception

[18:34] Inanna Fairlady: And heck, while we're at it - what makes a bad apology?

[18:34] Naughty Later: a bad apology is the kind that really is blaming you for my mistake

[18:34] Naughty Later: im sorry but ...

[18:35] Inanna Fairlady nods to mikki.

[18:35] Inanna Fairlady: Ooh, here's an apology I hate. "No offence meant"

[18:35] Inanna Fairlady: Sorry Mikki - I was thinking of the people who make a racist/sexist/whatever joke, and then say 'no offence meant'.

[18:36] Inanna Fairlady: And then I scrolled backwards, and suddenly went bright red.

[18:36] mikki Vintner: its always after the remadk is made

[18:36] Inanna Fairlady: Yes. And it's a remark they knew would be offensive - and (unlike yours) wouldn't actually ADD to the discussion.

[18:37] Naughty Later nods in agreement

[18:37] mikki Vintner: like..(insert group here) are the laziest..but not you...

[18:38] Naughty Later: oh ya, you gotta lvoe those .... they all suck, oh but not you of course

[18:38] mikki Vintner: but any apology is good

[18:38] Inanna Fairlady: My ideal apology acknowledges the mistake, acknowledges the consequences, includes at least a reasonable attempt at correction, and includes an attempt at preventing a recurrence.

[18:38] Keaira Karas: a good apology is simply saying you were wrong. not trying to explain it away. or justify it. or balme soemone else

[18:38] mikki Vintner: at least your acknowledging the fact that there was an oops

[18:39] Inanna Fairlady: Moving on, because this is supposed to be a 1 hour or so discussion (we can continue, but some of you will have planned to be elsewhere afterwards)....

[18:39] Inanna Fairlady: Correction. What's involved in correcting a mistake?

[18:40] Keaira Karas: I think the first step to correction is identifying the reason for the mistake

[18:40] Keaira Karas: then working through that

[18:40] Naughty Later: yes i agree, Keaira

[18:40] Inanna Fairlady: So .. checking & investigation are part of correction?

[18:41] mikki Vintner: but,,one must keep in mind..that there are those individuals..who..no matter what.its YOUR fault..etc

[18:41] Naughty Later: i think to really correct it, you have to understand why it happened

[18:41] Trillian Mills raises her hand again a little higher feeling a little more confident

[18:41] Trillian Mills: if it was an accident - try not to do it again
if it was a lack of training - learn not to do it again

[18:41] Pepper Morlim: yay Trillian

[18:41] Inanna Fairlady: And all of you who are being quiet, if you want to speak and are shy, you can IM me and I'll either signal you to speak, or pass your message on.

[18:42] Inanna Fairlady: Trillian: I TOTALLY agree.

[18:42] Naughty Later: i would add to Trillian's comment too, if you did it and need help understanding why it was wrong, looking for help too

[18:42] Trillian Mills: what makes the difference is whether the Master sees it that way

[18:42] Inanna Fairlady: And if it was a materials failure, replace with stronger materials or redesign, and look for similar points of failure

[18:43] mikki Vintner: and never forget,,that,,you DO have friends here in SL that will help you

[18:43] Naughty Later: thats an engineering comment if i ever saw one Inanna lol

[18:43] Inanna Fairlady: I would hope that a good master would listen to a submissive who said 'it seems that I don't know enough about X, please help me learn', or 'I plan to take a course in it' or 'I borrowed this book from the library' or whatever.

[18:43] Trillian Mills wonders what part of her might be replaced if it fails

[18:43] Inanna Fairlady giggles at Naughty. My background is showing.

[18:44] mikki Vintner: my guess..the broken part?

[18:44] Inanna Fairlady: My mother's knees failed, and were replaced. :)

[18:44] Naughty Later: my aunt's knee too, works like a charm now!

[18:45] mikki Vintner: but ive seen ppl trapped in relationships..both here and RL..and their friends try to help...but to no avail

[18:45] Inanna Fairlady nods to mikki.

[18:45] Inanna Fairlady: That's not a bad topic for a group discussion. One moment while I put it on my notecard.

[18:46] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. Next aspect: looking for patterns.

[18:46] Inanna Fairlady: I know there are some mistakes I just. keep. making.

[18:46] Inanna Fairlady: Overdoing it - trying to do more than my ^$*&^#$ing disabled body is capable of - is one of mine.

[18:47] Inanna Fairlady: How do you identify mistake patterns - and just as importantly, how do you break those patterns?

[18:49] Inanna Fairlady: One that works for me is to identify WHY the pattern keeps happening, and try to change the thinking that leads to it.

[18:49] Inanna Fairlady: One that works for me is to identify WHY the pattern keeps happening, and try to change the thinking that leads to it.

[18:50] mikki Vintner: first of all.patterns are so diffficult to identify,,,because they are SO much a part of you

[18:50] Inanna Fairlady: And once I'm not a stranger, as long as I'm friendly and care about the other person, they usually like me.

[18:50] Inanna Fairlady: Oh, VERY agreed, Mikki.

[18:50] mikki Vintner: like smoking..etc

[18:51] Inanna Fairlady: For me, I keep overdoing it because I just don't seem to be able to fully accept that yes, I'm disabled.

[18:51] Inanna Fairlady: I hate the label.

[18:52] Inanna Fairlady: Once I *accept* the condition, I'll probably be more willing to live within the limits. But I keep fighting it.

[18:52] Inanna Fairlady: And thus, keep perpetuating the mistake.

[18:52] Inanna Fairlady: Anyone got other examples ofo mistake patterns they want to share?

[18:53] Keaira Karas: correcting our behavior is soemthing we have to WANT to do. i dont' think it's somethign we can be made to do or punished into doing. it has to be something we wnat and need to do

[18:53] Inanna Fairlady: Or, since we're so close to time, we'll go straight to my last point.

[18:53] Inanna Fairlady nods to Keaira. Agreed.

[18:53] Naughty Later: agreed

[18:54] Inanna Fairlady: My final point I wanted to discuss is blame - though Keaira's made a critically important point as well.

[18:54] Inanna Fairlady: Please, just go ahead and speak to either point. Does it help to lay blame?

[18:54] Pepper Morlim: no

[18:54] Keaira Karas: it prevents our growth. and growth can result from mistakes

[18:54] mikki Vintner: self defeating in the long run

[18:55] Pepper Morlim: playing the blame game is counter productive

[18:55] Naughty Later: i agree with everyone else lol

[18:55] Trillian Mills: lay blame? like blame your mistake on someone else?

[18:55] Pepper Morlim: yes

[18:55] Inanna Fairlady: Or blame yourself, for that matter. :)

[18:56] Trillian Mills: well if i could have prevented the mistake, but didn't isn't that my fault?

[18:56] Trillian Mills: even if the Master made the mistake?

[18:56] mikki Vintner: the operative term tho is..."Shit Happens".....then you dealw it

[18:57] Inanna Fairlady: In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. Technically, any of the crew of the Titanic could have prevented the collision with the iceberg. Even those who were off watch at that point and asleep in their bunks.

[18:57] Inanna Fairlady: But it achieves nothing to blame those who were off watch. Or whose duty position was in the engine room, or ....

[18:58] Inanna Fairlady: And honestly, I think it achieves nothing to *blame* yourself even if it's your mistake. Blame, guilt, shame .. meh. Acknowledge it, learn from it, correct it, and move on with your life.

[18:58] Inanna Fairlady: "If only" achieves nothing. Try "Next time", instead.

[18:58] mikki Vintner: actually..the helmsman was poorly trained...steamships have a diff steering system than sails..

[18:58] Inanna Fairlady nods to mikki. I heard about that particular problem last night, actually.

[18:58] mikki Vintner: one works...like a car.you wanna go right..steer right

[18:59] Keaira Karas: the truth is, if not for mistakes, we'd never grow or improve or learn anything

[18:59] Naughty Later: totally agree, Keaira

[18:59] Inanna Fairlady: All we can do is learn from our own mistakes, AND learn from each other's mistakes, and do our best not to make uncorrectable mistakes.

[19:00] Inanna Fairlady: Like, if you're planning a suspension (real world), make sure you allow for the full, struggling weight of a human body in your engineering.

[19:00] Stacyann Dezno: nods in agreement

[19:00] Inanna Fairlady: Not just the passive weight.

[19:00] mikki Vintner wonders what the button that says "Do NOT touch" does

[19:00] Inanna Fairlady: (Yes, I've been reading up on Jay Wiseman's books.)

[19:00] Inanna Fairlady: (... learn from others' mistakes.)

[19:00] Inanna Fairlady: Okay folks. Any last questions or comments?

[19:01] Naughty Later: thank you all for such a great discussion, and for such an excellent topic Inanna

Open Forum Discussion, September 10 2010

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Friday, September 10, 2010
TOPIC: A Submissive's Rights

Submissive Voice Open Forum, September 6 2010

***** "Submissive Voice" Open Forum discussion at Dark Side Clubhouse BDSM Community *****

Monday, September 6, 2010
TOPIC: Becoming Healthy