***** DARK SIDE CLUBOUSE COMMUNITY OPEN FORUM DISCUSSIONS*****
July 23, 2010
TOPIC: subspace/Domspace
HOSTED BY: Pyria Minor
[19:07] Pyria Minor: Greetings all, welcome to tonights discussion
[19:07] Pyria Minor: The topic for tonight is Subspace and Domspace.
[19:09] Pyria Minor: As many of you know subspace is the mental aspect a sub or slave enters during play. This mental condition has been referred to as a cocoon, wherein the sub/slave feels at peace, free of all external things happening around her/him.
[19:09] Pyria Minor: For some this may be reached through pain, for others through humilation. Or a combination of them both.
[19:10] Pyria Minor: Can anyone here tell Me why its a place sought after so heavily by submissives?
[19:10] Arman Pizzaro: Are you saying only through pain and humilation only?
[19:11] Pyria Minor: That is the typical means, yes Arman. You see its brought on through extreme mental and physical stress.
[19:11] Pyria Minor: Pain and Humilation are both the most prominent means of having this form of stress occure
[19:12] ella Kroll: if you can go to a happy place then you are protecting your mind
[19:12] Deb Palmer: Sir is it sought as the epitome of the total gifting of oneself to their Dom? I mean...if everything "exterior" leaves you at that time?
[19:12] Arman Pizzaro: But how do you get to a happy place by giving more pain and humilation?
[19:13] Pyria Minor: For submissives that have been in this lifestyle for a longer period of time, some are quite capable of entering subspace at will. Merely with the touch of a hand in a specific way or by a sound.
[19:13] Deb Palmer cocks her head to the side, "Classical conditioning, Sir?"
[19:14] Pyria Minor: well Arman, its simple. Torture methodology has been used for centuries. To extract information or to break the will of a person.
[19:14] Pyria Minor: however in this case, that is not what is sought.
[19:15] Pyria Minor: It is to place the submissive in the trancelike state. To guide them them with the use of pain and/or humilation as the tools to do so.
[19:15] Arman Pizzaro: Im just trying to understand your explanantion of giving pain to take away pain is that what your saying?
[19:15] Pyria Minor: no not at all
[19:15] Pyria Minor: Giving pain is a means to ensure the submissive finds pleasure
[19:15] Arman Pizzaro: looks puzzled
[19:15] Pyria Minor: That is the premiss.
[19:16] Pyria Minor: The feelings of subspace... that total feeling of peace and freedom. Complete trust in the dominant that is providing the sensations that places the submissive there.
[19:17] Beth Sunkiller: pain and pleasure are just two kinds of sensation- pain is a more intense sensation and sometimes it can make pleasure more intense too
[19:17] Pyria Minor: agreed beth
[19:17] Pyria Minor: But what is the dangers of subspace? Does anyone know?
[19:17] Beth Sunkiller: and one can reach a point, rather quickly, where certain kinds of pain cause pleasure
[19:17] Oriadinae Dannitza: sub drop
[19:17] Sissy Stardust: coming out of it can be devastating
[19:17] Pyria Minor: thats one thing ori
[19:18] Pyria Minor: if not done correctly yes sissy
[19:18] Beth Sunkiller: well, in subspace it's hard to worry about yourself so if the Dom/me turns out not to be trustworthy...
[19:18] Deb Palmer: Is there a danger of habituation to it, Sir where a girl begins to need more pain to induce subspace?
[19:18] Pyria Minor: the session can be taken to far and the submissive may become injured more deeply than intended.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: It is the Dominants responsibility to maintain control of themselves and the scene.
[19:19] Pyria Minor: To ensure they are not placing the submissive in so deeply that the pain and humilation turn to abuse.
[19:20] Oriadinae Dannitza: if He o She is angry perhaps another time would e wise
[19:20] Pyria Minor: Often a submissive in subspace will beg and plead for more. A show that his/her trust is complete with the Dominant.
[19:20] Pyria Minor: Anger is never a time to begin a session.
[19:20] Drake Mortensen pats his girls head
[19:20] Beth Sunkiller: i was in subspace in a tub full of cold water once when the man dominating me got a phone call He had to take
[19:20] Beth Sunkiller: i just sat there in the tub
[19:21] Pyria Minor: Anger clouds judgement, just as alcohol and narcotics do.
[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: i was in too blissful of a place to be worried about it
[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: He told me to get out and wrapped me up in a blanket
[19:21] Pyria Minor: that is a very good description of why its important.
[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: but with someone else it could have been dangerous
[19:21] Oriadinae Dannitza: He should have removd you then taken thecall
[19:22] Pyria Minor: yes, while a submissive is in subspace, reasoning and coherency are often impaired greatly.
[19:22] Beth Sunkiller: we were both very inexperienced
[19:22] ella Kroll agree
[19:23] Pyria Minor: how many here can honestly say they have entered subspace?
[19:23] Beth Sunkiller: i have.
[19:23] Sissy Stardust raises her hand
[19:23] Keaira Karas raisies her hand and smiles
[19:23] Pyria Minor: for each of you, the experience is different and unique.
[19:24] Pyria Minor: Each time subspace is entered the sensations may be similar, but the experience that brought you to it is different.
[19:25] Beth Sunkiller: it's harder to distinguish between safe pain and dangerous pain
[19:25] Pyria Minor: who here can tell why a Dominant would want to venture into bringing a submissive into subspace?
[19:25] Pyria Minor: It is
[19:25] Beth Sunkiller: it's an amazing gift to the sub
[19:25] Pyria Minor: that is why there needs to be a very deep level of trust built between both Dominant and submissive.
[19:26] T0Much Takacs: Trust has to be the foundation.
[19:26] Pyria Minor: It does
[19:26] Pyria Minor: as well as respect for the submissive and the gift he/she is giving.
[19:26] Elentir Korhonen: Big.
[19:27] Beth Sunkiller: and it deepens the relationships between two people if it's done right
[19:27] Pyria Minor: for a Dominant there is also a space they may enter. The feelings of absolute control and power. The knowledge they have the submissives complete aspect in their hand.
[19:27] Pyria Minor smiles
[19:27] Pyria Minor: aye beth it does
[19:28] Pyria Minor: For Myself when I enter this Domspace, clarity of mind comes forth. The knowledge that I hold My slaves life and all that she is in My care.
[19:29] Pyria Minor: Very close attention to her wellbeing and state of mind is essential.
[19:29] Pyria Minor: To hold her in the place of subspace, to determine whether it is acceptable to take her deeper or hold her at a certain level.
[19:30] Pyria Minor: These things bring a sense of calm and command.
[19:30] Beth Sunkiller: i think at that point the Dominant is even more aware of the submissives desires than the sub is
[19:30] Beth Sunkiller: a lot more, actually
[19:30] Pyria Minor: Each Dominant will experience these things in their own way.
[19:30] Pyria Minor: I agree beth
[19:31] Sissy Stardust: He has to be, at least to our limits. speaking for myself but i don't know my own at that point.
[19:31] Pyria Minor: but if a Dominant loses himself in it, the session may go from "play" to abuse.
[19:31] Pyria Minor: This is why it is extremely important for the Dominant to maintain selfcontrol at all times.
[19:31] Pyria Minor: well put sissy
[19:32] Sissy Stardust: thank You Sir
[19:32] Pyria Minor: Are there any Dominants here who understand this place we enter? domspace?
[19:32] Elentir Korhonen: Not first hand, only from description.
[19:33] Drake Mortensen: For Me, it's total focus
[19:34] Pyria Minor: Each Dominant has their reasons for this. I am Sadist. So enjoy seeing how My slave endures under such treatment. But also I receive a great amount of pleasure knowing that I am helping her enter subspace. The feeling of knowing that her pain is for My and her pleasure.
[19:35] Pyria Minor: When does this form of "play" become abuse?
[19:35] Elentir Korhonen: Perhaps it's the motivation, and understanding of your sub's limits?
[19:35] Oriadinae Dannitza: when You go too far
[19:36] Oriadinae Dannitza: beyond her limits
[19:36] Beth Sunkiller: when it stops being about pleasuring the sub
[19:36] Pyria Minor: but shouldnt limits be pushed?
[19:36] Pyria Minor smiles
[19:36] Oriadinae Dannitza: pushed but not brken
[19:36] Beth Sunkiller: and starts being about frustration or anything other than love
[19:36] Pyria Minor: well put beth
[19:36] Pyria Minor: I agree ori
[19:36] Beth Sunkiller: thank You, Sir
[19:37] Cougar Ireman: You push, you nudge each limit seeing how far they'll stretch
[19:37] Oriadinae Dannitza: each time litle farthe
[19:37] Cougar Ireman: Every timethe sub will find something new about themselves
[19:37] Beth Sunkiller: trying new things is part of the thrill, things you would be afraid to try without the support of your Dom/me
[19:37] Pyria Minor: To Me there are a couple of means this may become abuse. Out of anger, where no pleasure is gained for either. When the Dominant does not pay close attention to the submissive during "play" and allows the session to take on a life of abuse. Causing harm merely for pains sake.
[19:38] Oriadinae Dannitza: then it isnt really subspace
[19:38] Pyria Minor: that it is beth
[19:38] Pyria Minor: it very well may be ori
[19:38] Oriadinae Dannitza: but a happy place for rotection
[19:38] Oriadinae Dannitza: out of fear
[19:39] Pyria Minor: ahhh
[19:39] Pyria Minor: your referring to the anger side of things then ori?
[19:39] Oriadinae Dannitza: yes Sir
[19:39] Pyria Minor nods
[19:39] Beth Sunkiller: and limits need to be pushed gently, not shattered
[19:39] Oriadinae Dannitza: lack of love
[19:40] Pyria Minor: but should a sub/slave be punished for wrong doing? If the dynamic of the relationship is based upon Master/slave-sub?
[19:40] Oriadinae Dannitza: of courseSir
[19:40] Beth Sunkiller: i don't think pain is necessarily the right punishment
[19:40] ella Kroll: and understanding of how far you can go
[19:40] Beth Sunkiller: being ignored hurts much more
[19:41] Deb Palmer: Agreed, Beth.
[19:41] Elentir Korhonen: Yes!
[19:41] Beth Sunkiller: or knowing you were disappointing
[19:41] Oriadinae Dannitza: it all depends on the sb
[19:41] Deb Palmer: Huge!
[19:41] Oriadinae Dannitza: sub
[19:41] Beth Sunkiller: i think pain is only good for lighthearted punishment
[19:41] Beth Sunkiller: but the anger can't be real
[19:41] Pyria Minor: But can punishment be used as a means to have the submissive enter subspace? And if so, is it something that is appropriate?
[19:41] Oriadinae Dannitza: if a punishment is needed then wait untl the anger fade
[19:41] Sissy Stardust: punishment is whatever corrects behavior, that can be anything from a good spaking to having to write a 5 page paper on Why i shouldn't question everything my Dom says..
[19:42] Pyria Minor laughs
[19:42] Beth Sunkiller: i think so, but i don't think it should be like the sub has done something seriously wrong
[19:42] Pyria Minor: well put sissy
[19:42] Sissy Stardust: thank You Sir
[19:42] Oriadinae Dannitza: Dont laugh Sir, i know of someone that had to so omethin similr
[19:42] Pyria Minor: and yes ori, I agree... a cooling down period needs to be taken into account.
[19:42] Beth Sunkiller: for instance, punishing a sub for being late with pain and such can be fun
[19:42] Deb Palmer: Sounds like the terms are at odds, Sir. If subspace is supposed to be pleasurable for the submissive, using punishment in conjunction with it is positive reinforcement for the negative behavior and I would think inappropriate.
[19:43] Beth Sunkiller: yeah
[19:43] Pyria Minor: in a sense you are right deb
[19:43] Deb Palmer grins, "Unless of course he likes a sub who misbehaves."
[19:43] Pyria Minor: However, that brings Me to My next point.
[19:43] Beth Sunkiller: i think it's only apropriate for things where you would say "don't do that again, please" but not things that cause real pain and anger
[19:43] Pyria Minor: Slavespace...
[19:44] Pyria Minor: This is a space that is used for deep reflection. A gambit of emotions and thoughts are run through in the submissives mind.
[19:45] Pyria Minor: Going from wanting to apologize, to feeling like he/she is a victim, to the end result, which is thinking the matter over carefully and finding what the punishment is for and to reconcile within their self the justification for it.
[19:46] Pyria Minor: one of the documents provided in the box at My feet gives a very good description slavespace.
[19:46] Pyria Minor: Each one of these mental aspects is reached for different reasons.
[19:46] Pyria Minor: Each one has its place in our choosen lifestyle.
[19:47] Pyria Minor: For some, it is merely the spank and tickle in the bedroom, for others it is the TPE within the dynamic of the relationship.
[19:47] Elentir Korhonen: mmmm, TPE, mmmm
[19:47] Pyria Minor: With all of them, trust and respect are essential.
[19:48] Pyria Minor: With all of them it is a means to deepen the foundations of the relationships we each have.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: comminucation is also extremely necessary. Not only for determining limits but for defining what the expectations of each person involved are.
[19:49] Pyria Minor: How does one come out of subspace/slavespace safely?
[19:50] Keaira Karas: The Dom needs to know the sub well enough to know where it's safe to push and how far
[19:50] Oriadinae Dannitza: brought down with aftercare
[19:50] Elentir Korhonen: aftercare is so keyl
[19:50] Keaira Karas: without aftercare, it's abuse in my opinion
[19:50] Pyria Minor: I agree love, wholeheartedly
[19:51] Beth Sunkiller: the sub needs to be reassured that all of it was done in love
[19:51] Pyria Minor: aftercare is not only the responsiblity of the Dominant, but also shows their love and respect for the submissive that has given this gift.
[19:51] Elentir Korhonen: yes, recognition and appreciation.
[19:51] Cougar Ireman: Letting them calm down then promptly bringing them back to an orgasm is a type of torture too
[19:51] Pyria Minor laughs
[19:51] Cougar Ireman: not that I ever did that to a sub
[19:51] Pyria Minor: it is
[19:52] Pyria Minor: but very often a submissive that has been in subspace is disoriented, incoherrent and not able to use reason. How do you help the submissive come out of subspace safely?
[19:53] Elentir Korhonen: ask them a simple question? perhaps that's more of a check (for the other side of the screen)
[19:53] Deb Palmer: With a vanilla frappicino with whipped cream?
[19:53] Pyria Minor: LOL deb
[19:54] Pyria Minor: the best method is to help the submissive relax. They will be tired and drained from the experience. Sometimes aftercare is merely holding them and soothing them with the love you have for them.
[19:55] T0Much Takacs: Reassurance and security. Give the sub a comfortable place to come back to.
[19:55] Pyria Minor: other times it needs to go much deeper. Tending their hurts, bathing them gently and placing them in bed, keeping a close watch over them and letting them feel your presence.
[19:55] Sissy Stardust smiles and nods
[19:55] Pyria Minor: well put TOMuch
[19:56] Sissy Stardust: Aftercare doesn't stop at the end of the night either. Some submissives need checking on into the next days as well.
[19:56] Elentir Korhonen: Interesting.
[19:57] Sissy Stardust shrugs and grins, "ok, i know i do, maybe i'm just strange"
[19:57] Pyria Minor: To gain what we all desire in our relationships... balance. These things seem silly being spoken of. They are common sense. However, over time complacancy may occure and with that, the abuse may creep in. So it is so very important to remind ourselves of these things. Be vigilent and aware. Communicate our needs and listen to the needs of our partners.
[19:58] Pyria Minor: yes sissy... sometimes it may take days or even a week or two to fully come down off of the sesssion.
[19:58] Pyria Minor: are there any questions about tonights discussion?
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