Intersexuality

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Intersexuality in humans refers to intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish male from female. This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosome, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from stereotypical XX=female or XY=male presentations, such as sex reversal (XY=female, XX=male), genital ambiguity, sex developmental differences. An intersex organism may have biological characteristics of both the male and female sexes.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality

I will shorten this source and put it in my own words... The term Hermaphrodite was originally used to describe this sexual ambiguity. Later, the term intersexed began to get used since true hermaphoditic nature in humans is very rare.

What is sexual ambiguity?
Sexual ambiguity examples are things such as enlarged clitoris, micropenis, empty scrotum, breast development in males, unusual pelvic tilt, or even more subtle signs like lack of any development.
An example of sexual ambiguity in the animal world would be the Spotted Hyena. A feature of the Spotted Hyena is that females have an enlarged clitoris, called a pseudo-penis, demi-penis, or sometimes mistakenly referred to as a nanophallus. Female hyenas give birth, copulate, and urinate through their protruding genitalia, which stretches to allow the male penis to enter for copulation; it also stretches during birth. The anatomical position of the genitalia gives females complete control over which males are allowed to mate with them. The females are larger than the males and often mistaken for males because of this feature, as well as the alpha females creating a matriarchal social structure. This is simple one example.

The condition of intersexuality is something someone is born into either by nature or a drug taken by the mother during pregnancy, in my case Thalidomide. Thalidomide was a drug used to treat morning sickness in mothers in the sixties and is a teratogen (drug that causes birth defects). IF the drug has killed a twin during pregnancy while leaving the other intact, then such a case is called Chimerism.

What is Chimerism?
Chimerism is typically seen in non-human zoology (but also discovered to a rare extent in human beings), a chimera is an animal that has two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated in different zygotes; if the different cells emerged from the same zygote, it is called a mosaicism. It is possible when a twin dies, the genetic material can be absorbed into the surviving twin and a fusing of the two can result during early stages of pregnancy. This results in the person having two dna types, two blood types (occasionally), and often intesexuality in fraternal twins.

Chimeras are not hybrids, which form from the fusion of gametes from two species (like a donkey and a horse) that form a single zygote that will develop as much as it can (in this case into a live mule if the parents are jackass and mare, or a hinny if the parents are stallion and jenny).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

True hermaphrodism in humans is very, very rare indeed since there has to be signs of both ovarian and testicular tissue. A functional hermaphrodite would be a person who produces both eggs and sperm within the same body, even rarer in humans. Since all humans are at a female stage in early development until hormones and growth mapped by dna changes them into male (if the dna calls for it), it's really all the same material being formed so the possibility does exist.

Often the result of intersexuality is a so-called pseudo-hermaphrodite. This is generally thought to be a person who appears male outside but internally is female (or at least genetically) or vice versa. This is a physical condition and is not to be mistaken with transgenderism which is gender identity. While the two can be related, they are in fact separate terms.

Throughout history, intersexuality is usually corrected when evident at birth by making the child male 90% of the time. This can result in gender confusion later. Some advances have been made to recognize the condition of intersexuality, but it has a way to go to be fully understood by the masses.

-Write me if you have any further questions on the subject, and thank you for taking the time to read this.

Felicie Kit

Open Forum Discussion, May 21 2010

***** DARK SIDE CLUBOUSE COMMUNITY OPEN FORUM DISCISSIONS*****

May 21, 2010
TOPIC: BDSM and Love
HOSTED BY: Master Pyria Minor

[19:02] Pyria Minor: Tonight we are talking about maintaining the balance between a loving and caring relationship as well as the Dom/sub relationships. For many of us this is a lifestyle we've choosen and express in our day to day lives.

[19:03] Pyria Minor: Many people people feel it is merely about the kink, however it runs much deeper than this. The aspects of the daily routines are as important as the exchange when we are in "play".

[19:04] Pyria Minor: Can love and emotion be shared even when there is TPE or a varying degree of Dominance and submission?

[19:04] Allandrea Xaris: Submission is a form of love to me. It's because i love Him i submit.

[19:05] Oriadinae Dannitza: i agree with allie Sir

[19:05] Pyria Minor: Often I've heard submissives express that part of how they share their love is through the act of submission. Allowing the control and guidence of their Dominant to express these things

[19:05] Pyria Minor smiles

[19:06] Pyria Minor: How many here believe that the two should be seperate?

[19:06] Oriadinae Dannitza shakes her head negatively

[19:06] Pyria Minor nods

[19:07] Cathy Deceit: It shouldn't, but because it shouldn't be seperate, that doesn't mean it's not OKAY to wish to keep them seperate in some instances.

[19:07] Pyria Minor: so is it easy to still be inlove with your partner and still submit or be dominant?

[19:07] daryn Parx: Not sure Sir Pyria; love is an emotion and submission is a lifestyle? no?

[19:07] Pyria Minor: cant love be a lifestyle as well?

[19:07] Inanna Fairlady: For me, submission is an emotion. It's blended into the love.

[19:07] Allandrea Xaris: It's not easy.

[19:07] Deb Effingham: And submission be born of love as well?

[19:07] Allandrea Xaris: Especially out in the real world qaround friends outside the lifestyle.

[19:08] Oriadinae Dannitza: love and submission are both lifestyle, Sir, and both can be born of the other

[19:08] Inanna Fairlady: I have a couple of necklaces that look perfectly normal - but *WE* know.

[19:08] Pyria Minor chuckles

[19:09] Pyria Minor: So you've basically answered this misconception by others. Love and Dominance/submission can go hand in hand.

[19:09] Pyria Minor: There is an ebb and flow to such relationships.

[19:09] Pyria Minor: This is normal whether your in a Master/slave or vanillia relationship.

[19:10] Pyria Minor: Compromise and inclussion are always necessary to maintain a healthy balance.

[19:10] Oriadinae Dannitza: Sir i believe it has to do with the trust, communication, and responsiblity both share

[19:10] Pyria Minor: The amount of compromise is something that depends upon the unique relationships we each share.

[19:10] Pyria Minor: very well put ori

[19:10] Oriadinae Dannitza: blushes deeply thank You Sir

[19:11] Pyria Minor: In a TPE relationship this is something that can be a bone of contintion.

[19:11] Cougar Ireman: You must always have communication...and a willingness to bend for the other

[19:11] Inanna Fairlady: ... unless you're in a corset. :P

[19:11] Allandrea Xaris: IT also depends on how deep it goes for B/both. Whether it splls ouside te home or just stayes behind closed doors.

[19:11] Pyria Minor: Listening to your prospective partners will lesson this affect. Communication is always essential to maintaining the healthy balance.

[19:12] Pyria Minor laughs

[19:12] Pyria Minor: quite alright inanna

[19:12] Cougar Ireman: that's when you get hung upside down on the rack...saves you having to bend inanna

[19:12] Elentir Korhonen surpresses chuckle at corset

[19:14] Pyria Minor: There are dominants who believe that right, wrong or indifferent they are always right. There are those of us that aknowledge our short comings and listen to our submissives to help with the guidence. Not only in the day to day exchange but also in the emotional side of things.

[19:15] Oriadinae Dannitza: i believe i know a few of the latter Sir

[19:15] Elentir Korhonen: Seems like a good submissive has much wisdom to share - makes a team, yet still is clear on TPE.

[19:15] Pyria Minor: The longer the relationship the more depth and bredth of feeling and emotion is felt.

[19:15] Pyria Minor: thats true

[19:15] Cougar Ireman: Listening to your sub, understanding what they desire only enhances what you will share with him or her

[19:15] Pyria Minor: But can the facet of love be used to help manipulate the dominant?

[19:15] Oriadinae Dannitza: yes Sir it can

[19:16] Allandrea Xaris: It can easily. It ends up where a submissive will top from thebottom.

[19:16] Inanna Fairlady: Too easily.

[19:16] Cid Blister: Of course it can

[19:16] Cougar Ireman runs his fingers through Ori's hair gently

[19:16] Deb Effingham: Both Dom and sub should be interested in E/each other's personal growth and be eager to assist with such and open to growing for the O/other.

[19:16] Pyria Minor: and how can something like this be corrected?

[19:16] Pyria Minor: Very well put deb

[19:16] Aphrodite Aumenie: i dunno i think Cougar has some truth. you need to feel for each other to understand what is good

[19:16] Oriadinae Dannitza: again referring back to communication and honesty

[19:16] Elentir Korhonen smiles

[19:16] Pyria Minor nods

[19:17] Beth Sunkiller: Does it need to be corrected?

[19:17] Allandrea Xaris: By taking a step back an re-evaluating the relationship.

[19:17] Pyria Minor: always those are the cornerstones

[19:17] Inanna Fairlady: In part, willpower from the sub. In part, self-awareness from the dominant.

[19:17] Inanna Fairlady: Rigorous self-honesty, IMO. It's necessary for everyone.

[19:17] Oriadinae Dannitza: it would if the sub, is abusing privliges

[19:18] Inanna Fairlady: It depends, Ori. WHY is the sub doing it? Is it because the sub is afraid of something? Is there a problem that needs to be addressed? Or is it just the sub resisting for the sake of it?

[19:18] Oriadinae Dannitza: taking advantage of the Domminant,

[19:18] Beth Sunkiller: I think for a relationship to work there has to be constant communication

[19:18] Inanna Fairlady: If there's a problem... well, the sub should be trained to express the problem in a less harmful way. But the problem also needs to be addressed.

[19:19] Allandrea Xaris: So how doesa Dom overcome their caring feelings to offer the needed correction?

[19:19] Aphrodite Aumenie: i don't know if we already addressed this, but does the love have to go both ways?

[19:19] Cid Blister: and a Dom should always be weary of being ruled from the bottom, despite his or hers feeling for the sub

[19:19] Cathy Deceit: Mostly by biting the bullet, and making up for it in aftercare? :3

[19:20] Deb Effingham: I'm not sure he does, Allie. The correction should be done of caring, should it not?

[19:20] Inanna Fairlady: I wouldn't be sub to someone who I don't love and who didn't love me - so for me, yes.

[19:20] Beth Sunkiller: I don't think the love has to go both ways

[19:20] Cid Blister: It's healthier if the love goes both ways

[19:20] Inanna Fairlady: And yeah, I agree with Deb. The correction comes out of the caring.
[19:20] Beth Sunkiller: I've been in love with someone and submitted to them when the love wasn't mutual

[19:20] Cid Blister: but, a good Dom/Domme should be looking out for his/her subs wellbeing and progression

[19:21] Aphrodite Aumenie: mhmm

[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: well, it was platonic love for the other person involved

[19:21] Deb Effingham: In my instance I agree with Inanna. I would not submit to someone Whom I didn't love and Who didn't love me in return.

[19:21] Allandrea Xaris: IT should. To me, because He cares He should correct her. It is part of looking out for the sub's well being.

[19:21] Oriadinae Dannitza: but that does not mean that they have to love them

[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: there are a lot of ways to love someone

[19:21] Inanna Fairlady: True

[19:21] Oriadinae Dannitza: i agree Beth

[19:21] Elentir Korhonen loves Deb.

[19:21] Cid Blister: Real love takes time to develop

[19:21] Inanna Fairlady: It shows, Sir.

[19:21] Beth Sunkiller: i think people don't have to love each other in the same way to have a good relationship

[19:21] Keaira Karas: there are those who aren't interested in the emotions...jujst teh power exchange

[19:21] Cid Blister: nods

[19:22] Oriadinae Dannitza: exactly,

[19:22] Beth Sunkiller: I've fallen in love with my best friend

[19:22] Cid Blister: uh oh

[19:22] Keaira Karas smiles at Beth

[19:22] Elentir Korhonen: Way cool.

[19:22] Beth Sunkiller: and you can be honest about how you feel and not expect anything
[19:22] Oriadinae Dannitza: i have a multiude of feelings,

[19:22] Deb Effingham: I think it's up to the Dom and sub to determine what meets E/each of their interests and desires. So long as both are fulfilled, that's all that matters.

[19:22] Oriadinae Dannitza: for a number of people

[19:22] Allandrea Xaris: Now this dips down in to whether there should be time taken to be a vanilla couple and express the love that way as well. Is it healthy to always be in total D/s all the time?

[19:22] Oriadinae Dannitza: varying degrees of love

[19:22] Beth Sunkiller: and just enjoy being able to spend time with someone wonderful

[19:22] Cid Blister: yes it is

[19:23] Cid Blister: A good D/s relationship is healthy

[19:23] Beth Sunkiller: I don't think a couple has to do "vanilla" stuff necessarily

[19:23] Aphrodite Aumenie: yeah i guess if the dominance/submission is how the people express themselves, then the vanilla stuff isn't necessary

[19:23] Beth Sunkiller: just, the dynamic has to shift sometimes

[19:23] Inanna Fairlady: I don't mentally divide it.

[19:23] Deb Effingham: Again, very individualistic, I think.

[19:23] Beth Sunkiller: i mean, sex with candles and rose petals isn't for everyone

[19:23] Cid Blister: but if it happens, so what?

[19:24] Oriadinae Dannitza: Master Cougar and i do not do D/s all the time

[19:24] Inanna Fairlady: I suppose a lot of things I do seem vanilla, and maybe are. I dunno.

[19:24] Cid Blister: and that's fine

[19:24] Cid Blister: every couple is different and has different needs

[19:24] Allandrea Xaris: IT seems like it depends on the relationship then, correct?

[19:24] Beth Sunkiller: there's nothing wrong with vanilla, it's just not essential

[19:24] Oriadinae Dannitza: it would Allie

[19:24] Inanna Fairlady: Of course, in my case it's complicated by the carer/cripple relationship as well.

[19:24] Aphrodite Aumenie: right

[19:24] Deb Effingham: I think a lot of it has to do with perspective as well. What may seem vanilla to each of us might be extreme to Sister Helen.

[19:25] Inanna Fairlady: So I have D/s, carer/crip, and lovers.... meh. It's easier just to love each other do things as we see fit, without sticking labels all over stuff.

[19:25] Cid Blister: there are different levels of BDSM, not every one cares to decend to some of the more hardcore alcoves of it

[19:25] Allandrea Xaris: So that brings it on to another ropic how does a Sadist balance Their love with Their desire to give pain to the masochist? Are they not caring for Their sub because They want to cause pain?

[19:25] Cid Blister: and that's fine

[19:25] Cathy Deceit: Got to be carefull about slapping the term "vanilla" on any activities that are not covered by the D/S bible. I'm sorry, but even though i prefer to be under dominance, i still like going to see movies durnit :/

[19:26] Cid Blister: the care by giving the pain in a way that the masochist needs and deserves

[19:26] Oriadinae Dannitza: and i love to go dancing

[19:26] Allandrea Xaris laughs at Cathy, "So do i, but it's in a dress with no panties."

[19:26] Inanna Fairlady: In the signboard in the main building, there's a quote. "The purpose of a flogging is to inflict pleasure."

[19:26] Deb Effingham: And They care by respecting hard limits.

[19:26] Aphrodite Aumenie giggles at Cathy

[19:26] Cid Blister: always respect the limits

[19:27] Inanna Fairlady: They care by being careful to hurt, but never EVER harm.

[19:27] Allandrea Xaris nods at Master Cid. "So they are providing for the needs ofTheir submissive, a form of love."

[19:28] Elentir Korhonen listens.

[19:28] Allandrea Xaris: But what about a Sadists to a non-masochistic submissive? Is it her duty by love to provide for His need as well?

[19:28] Beth Sunkiller: i don't think a sadist and a massochist automatically have a different relationship than any other two people with compatible kinks

[19:28] Allandrea Xaris: Or would it be selfish and uncaring o the Dominant?

[19:28] Keaira Karas: that's a good question

[19:28] Beth Sunkiller: I think it depends on the subs limits

[19:28] Inanna Fairlady: Okay - I can probably give some insight there.

[19:28] Deb Effingham: I don't think that a non-masochistic submissive has a duty to provide for His sadistic need.

[19:28] Oriadinae Dannitza: one can not control whom they love

[19:28] Aphrodite Aumenie: but why would they stay together?

[19:29] Cid Blister: A good Master will always be looking into the needs of the submissive, and trying to expand the limits gradually.

[19:29] Allandrea Xaris: Maybe every part of T/them clicks but that one part, Aphrodite.

[19:29] Keaira Karas: the fact is, no one person is going to be EVERYTHING you want. it's not possible. we make sacrifices out of love. it's part of being in a relationship

[19:29] Inanna Fairlady: I have a pain disorder. My dominant likes to create pain - HIS pain, the pain HE chooses to inflict. Unfortunately, my (*&^#$ body is always in pain, and is hypersensitive to pain.

[19:29] Cid Blister: If the Master can't satisfy the subs needs, the relationship won't last.
[19:30] Allandrea Xaris nodsa at Inanna, "And He cares for you by knowing when it is and isn't appropriate?"

[19:30] Cathy Deceit: I could see how your master would be turned off by that Inanna, it feels like cheating.

[19:30] Inanna Fairlady: What He has chosen to do is ... hm. To guide the pain, and to inflict .. sensation. He has found that He enjoys .. playing me like a violin, in the same way He enjoys inflicting pain.

[19:30] Oriadinae Dannitza: like i stated before, one can not control whom you love

[19:30] Inanna Fairlady: So W/we found a way.

[19:30] Allandrea Xaris grins at Ori, "my Master does."

[19:30] Inanna Fairlady: And yes, Cathy. It's not His pain.

[19:31] Oriadinae Dannitza: not what meant Allie

[19:31] Oriadinae Dannitza: i meant from within

[19:31] Cid Blister: Well, I get the eros of your Master, Inanna. But he, should be watching you closely and finding your limits without you generally knowing that is what he/she is doing.

[19:31] Cathy Deceit: IT's like using cheat codes to do 10x more damage in a video game or something, there's so feelings of accomplishments :3

[19:31] Inanna Fairlady: But He can sort of .. blend sensations, until I am giving the kind of expressions and responses He likes from creating pain.

[19:31] Inanna Fairlady nods to Cid. "He could well be doing that, Sir."

[19:32] Inanna Fairlady: I wouldn't know. :)

[19:32] Inanna Fairlady: I have to concur.

[19:32] Aphrodite Aumenie: oh what's the fun in being nice

[19:32] Cid Blister: Yes he could, Inanna.

[19:32] Pyria Minor: So the blending of love with this relationship type is a means to further the testing of limits?

[19:32] Oriadinae Dannitza: not necessarily Sir
[19:33] Cid Blister: sometimes

[19:33] Pyria Minor: its a means at times though, yes?

[19:33] Inanna Fairlady: He does provide new and interesting sensations from time to time. :)

[19:33] Oriadinae Dannitza: it is a trust that the limits will not be broken and that they will grow together

[19:33] Allandrea Xaris: A good Master who loves and cares for His sub willl continually help her grow.

[19:33] Pyria Minor nods

[19:33] Pyria Minor: well put allie

[19:33] Deb Effingham: The blending of love might make it possible for each to give more, for former hard limits to be tested a bit for the purpose of growth.

[19:33] Allandrea Xaris: That can include expanding her limits.

[19:33] Pyria Minor: I agree deb

[19:34] Vyxyn Wytchwood: good point Deb :)

[19:34] Elentir Korhonen: nods

[19:34] Pyria Minor: with love also comes deeper trust and respect

[19:34] Allandrea Xaris: The trust gives a submissive more boldness to explore outside her box.

[19:34] Pyria Minor: aye

[19:34] Oriadinae Dannitza: most definately Sir

[19:34] Cid Blister: The key to a good D/s relationship is trust. If this is not violated, the relationship will grow deeper.

[19:34] Oriadinae Dannitza: looking up with admiration

[19:34] Deb Effingham: ...not to mention greater responsibility.

[19:34] Elentir Korhonen: True.

[19:34] Aphrodite Aumenie: so...part of the Dom's responsibility is to widen his sub's scope of interest?

[19:34] Cid Blister: nods

[19:35] Cid Blister: of course

[19:35] Allandrea Xaris: To grow and teach her about heself.

[19:35] Aphrodite Aumenie: can that go the other way

[19:35] Cathy Deceit wears a spiderman mask. "With great power.. comes great responsibilities."

[19:35] Inanna Fairlady: Absolutely, 'dite.

[19:35] Aphrodite Aumenie: haha

[19:35] Keaira Karas: lol Cathy

[19:35] Cid Blister: you always need to keep the pressure on, in some form

[19:35] Oriadinae Dannitza: i know Master Cougar has introduced me to new things

[19:35] Pyria Minor: ahhh Responsiblity. In a relationship such as ours, the responsiblity comes from both partners. Expressing how each may grow and help the other do so.

[19:35] Inanna Fairlady: It's part of a submissive's responsibility as well.

[19:36] Deb Effingham: Two way street.

[19:36] Pyria Minor: Through this responsibilty love is also expressed.

[19:36] Pyria Minor: defintely

[19:36] Oriadinae Dannitza: some fun others distasteful, all of which were discussed

[19:36] Inanna Fairlady: Care for her dominant, help Him or Her become more than they were when you first met.

[19:36] Inanna Fairlady: Become more *themself*.

[19:36] Cougar Ireman: and We've experimented....not all successful ....but we discuss, learn and pick a direction for both of us

[19:36] Deb Effingham smiles at Inanna's comment

[19:37] Pyria Minor: definately inanna

[19:37] Beth Sunkiller: I think a relationship isn't healthy if it doesn't help both partners grow

[19:37] Pyria Minor: My love has helped Me grow beyond anything I ever felt possible.

[19:37] Oriadinae Dannitza: smiles up at Him

[19:37] Inanna Fairlady: I am trying to be the best *ME* that I can be. Not to be someone else, or a mirror of someone - not even of my dom. But the best *ME*. And I help my partners do the same.

[19:37] Inanna Fairlady: And they help me do this.

[19:37] Oriadinae Dannitza: that is all you can be Ina

[19:37] Pyria Minor: In this growth I believe she is also growing and expanding.

[19:37] Deb Effingham: It's a perfectly symbiotic relationship.

[19:38] Aphrodite Aumenie: that's very true

[19:38] Cid Blister: nods

[19:38] Oriadinae Dannitza: that is how i feel with Master Cougar Sir

[19:38] Cid Blister: especially when your giving a good spanking

[19:38] Pyria Minor: many of the things can be hard for both. With love it makes it easier as you explore specific things. The knowledge that things are done out of love and not just the exploration.

[19:39] Oriadinae Dannitza: even the act of punishement is done out of love Sir

[19:39] Cid Blister: It is?
[19:39] Cid Blister: >:)

[19:40] Pyria Minor: though love helps in guiding the discipline. Ensuring that it fits the infraction.

[19:40] Aphrodite Aumenie: i guess love is kind of a cushion for experimentation

[19:40] Pyria Minor: it can be

[19:40] Oriadinae Dannitza: perhaps Sir, but it definately helps

[19:40] Elentir Korhonen: Yes! (re symbiotic)tic

[19:40] Pyria Minor: but also can make a Dominant hesitate

[19:40] Cid Blister: Actually, for me, punishments are done with a lot of thought and planning. There must be a message and lesson.

[19:40] Cathy Deceit: a pincushion in this case o_o

[19:40] Inanna Fairlady: It helps the submissive cope when the dominant hits an unexpected problem.

[19:40] Pyria Minor: Uncertainty based upon emotional attachments.

[19:41] Inanna Fairlady: For instance, one time we ran right up against a massive emotional block for me - one that I hadn't known was there.

[19:41] Pyria Minor: Are there Dominants here that may at times feel this uncertainty?

[19:41] Vyxyn Wytchwood: yes

[19:41] Oriadinae Dannitza: nods, i understand Sir, but if there is not love then why would there be the desire to correct

[19:41] Thina Mistwood: i have Pyria

[19:41] Pyria Minor nods

[19:41] Cougar Ireman: Find a punishment that may be somewhat humiliating to the sub but something you know also excites them

[19:41] Cid Blister: Uncertaintly?

[19:41] Inanna Fairlady: And the scene *stopped* and he just held me. But the love let me trust Him to take it on and go back to the scene the next day. Just .. modified.

[19:41] Pyria Minor: The feeling that as a Dominant you may have pushed past a limit in love?

[19:42] Pyria Minor: then love worked to your advantage inanna

[19:42] Cid Blister: You always have to be careful....I just never let it show.

[19:42] Oriadinae Dannitza: and to mine as well

[19:42] Pyria Minor: providing a good proving ground to establish how to work through it

[19:42] Aphrodite Aumenie: that's good then. the love ensures that the right effect comes out of it

[19:42] Pyria Minor: yes

[19:43] Beth Sunkiller: Crossing the wrong line is a risk in all relationships, though

[19:43] Cougar Ireman reaches over and tickles allie as she tries to look all official

[19:43] Oriadinae Dannitza: yes beth it is

[19:43] Pyria Minor: again communication is the key. Dominants need to be able to express to the sub/slave why they may hesitate and how together you may work through some hesitations and limitations.

[19:43] Cid Blister: that's what safe words are for

[19:44] Allandrea Xaris giggles an scoot away trying to pay attention.

[19:44] Deb Effingham: Sir, I think selecting a punishment that's humiliating but also exciting to the sub might just be confusing as it's also providing positive reinforcement.

[19:44] Inanna Fairlady nods to Master Pyria. And Master Cid.

[19:44] Pyria Minor: But Cid if your in a total TPE, Master/slave relationship. Trust and respect are what guide you. The slave may endure more than what she/he felt is possilbe to show their love, trust and respect.

[19:45] Pyria Minor: its a good Dominant that watchs and takes the responsiblity to ensure they are not pushed so far that there is irrepriable harm done.

[19:45] Beth Sunkiller: I don't think the dom should have to feel responsible for that

[19:45] Cid Blister: Yes, a Master/slave relationship is a bit more structured

[19:45] Cougar Ireman: Depends Deb...each situation is different...each act of punishment should be

[19:45] Pyria Minor: why beth?

[19:45] Cid Blister: in fact a lot more structured

[19:45] Beth Sunkiller: I think the dom should always respect hard limits and safe words

[19:46] Beth Sunkiller: but if the sub isn't willing to use the safe word, they are the one making that choice

[19:46] Cid Blister: agrees w/Pyria

[19:46] Cid Blister: agrees w/beth (the safe word is part of the trust and communication)

[19:46] Pyria Minor: beth what your speaking of is a Dom/sub relationship.

[19:46] Pyria Minor: in a Master/slave relationship, safewords are not commonly used.

[19:46] Pyria Minor: its a deeper means of expressing trust and respect.

[19:47] Pyria Minor: this is when the love and responsiblity of the Dominant must be in place.

[19:47] Beth Sunkiller: i don't think safe words are always necessart

[19:47] Pyria Minor: A Dominant has the responsibilty to maintain control of themselves.

[19:47] Cid Blister: Being a slave takes submission to the next level. And I agree with Pyria, who obviously has some experience with this.

[19:47] Beth Sunkiller: but i think mistakes are more likely when there isn't some form of love involved

[19:47] Pyria Minor smiles

[19:48] Pyria Minor: this is very true beth

[19:48] Cathy Deceit: I can say that i have never had to use my safeword, ever. I seriously wish i never have to.

[19:48] Oriadinae Dannitza: love comes in all forms Beth

[19:48] Cathy Deceit: But, i at least am safe in the fact that I do have one.

[19:48] Beth Sunkiller: yes, it does

[19:48] Inanna Fairlady: I use 'green/yellow/red'

[19:48] Deb Effingham: Sounds like your Dom is very in tune with you, Cathy. *smiles*

[19:48] Pyria Minor smiles

[19:49] Pyria Minor: understandable cathy

[19:49] Cid Blister: that would just make me spank you harder, Ina.

[19:49] Cathy Deceit: Welll... No comment there Deb currently. :/

[19:49] Cid Blister: >:)

[19:49] Beth Sunkiller: i think safe words are most important when people don't know each other well

[19:49] Pyria Minor: Does love have to be present in a Dom/sub, Master/slave relationship?

[19:49] Cid Blister: NO

[19:49] Deb Effingham: No.

[19:49] Aphrodite Aumenie: oh forceful answer there!

[19:49] Allandrea Xaris: Not a lick.

[19:50] Pyria Minor: why?

[19:50] Beth Sunkiller: i don't think romantic love does, but i think platonic love helps

[19:50] Deb Effingham: It's an accessory.

[19:50] Cid Blister: Why does it?

[19:50] Oriadinae Dannitza: it is not mandatory but it does not hurt

[19:50] Beth Sunkiller: loathing is better for one night stands

[19:50] Pyria Minor nods

[19:50] Deb Effingham: It's like saying that SM has to be part of a D/s relationship.

[19:50] Deb Effingham: Can certainly enhance it for some, but not for everyone.

[19:50] Pyria Minor: if you think about it, in traditional settings, love is never equated in a Dom/sub, Master/slave relationship.

[19:51] Pyria Minor: Traditional meaning the very essence of what the meaning of each is.

[19:51] Cid Blister: Love is a reward that is discovered. It's not something you can create at will. But, it's nice when you find it.

[19:51] Pyria Minor: However in BDSM culture, its not only accepted but also encouraged.

[19:51] Pyria Minor: I fully and completely agree Cid

[19:52] Pyria Minor: Love is a benefit. One that grows and matures as the relationships blossom.

[19:52] Oriadinae Dannitza: i too agree with Master Cid

[19:53] Pyria Minor: So everyone here agrees that Love only deepens the exchange between Dominant and sub/slave?

[19:54] Elentir Korhonen: Yes!

[19:54] Deb Effingham: I agree that it deepens it for some.

[19:54] Elentir Korhonen: and perhaps the other way around as well.

[19:54] Nellie Swansong: yes

[19:54] Inanna Fairlady: "yellow" in my safeword set means "things are fine but we need to adjust my position" or some other minor alteration that is needed.

[19:54] Pyria Minor: and for others what does it do deb?

[19:54] Deb Effingham: I think in some relationships it might inhibit the overall experience. Again, highly individualistic. It's crucial for me but I'm not "everybody".

[19:55] Elentir Korhonen: You are to me.

[19:55] Elentir Korhonen: (sorry, flirt flirt).

[19:55] Inanna Fairlady: Awwwdatsweet

[19:55] Cathy Deceit: Well, Inanna, i can udnerstand why in your case it would be important with your physical condition. In my own case, i consider the discomfort a part of the experience, and then i share of it afterwards when discussed, and then we'll know in the future.

[19:55] Pyria Minor nods

[19:56] Inanna Fairlady nods to Cathy.

[19:56] Elentir Korhonen: Be well!

[19:57] Pyria Minor: I think your correct deb... for some it can be a hinderance. However I strongly feel that together, all things can be managed and worked out.

[19:57] Deb Effingham: Back to communication, Sir.

[19:57] Pyria Minor: And with love present, the trust and respect for eachother will help them overcome the hurtle.

[19:58] Pyria Minor: definately back to communication

[19:58] Pyria Minor: love shouldnt hold you back for fear of harming it.
.
[19:58] Elentir Korhonen: True!

[19:58] Pyria Minor: it should increase the trust there that anything expressed will only strengthen it.

[19:58] Deb Effingham: Very much agreed, Sir.

[19:59] Pyria Minor smiles

[19:59] Pyria Minor: Folks I'd like to apologize for having to step away for a few minutes. And thank allie for stepping in to help with the discussion

[20:00] Inanna Fairlady: Perfectly alright, Sir.

[20:00] Pyria Minor: I hope everyone here found this topic benefical and rewarding

[20:00] Urasys Hansome: Thank you

[20:00] Elentir Korhonen: Another excellent discussion.

[20:00] Deb Effingham: Very good topic!

[20:00] CaseyElaine Baxton: thank you

[20:00] Pyria Minor smiles

[20:00] Thina Mistwood: i found it most helpful thank you

[20:00] Elentir Korhonen: Well facilitated I might ad.

[20:00] Jessie Pherala: yes, thank you Sir

[20:00] Pyria Minor smiles

[20:00] Pyria Minor: thank you all

Open Forum Discussion, May 7 2010

DS Open Forum Discussion
May 7, 2010
TOPIC: BDSM and the Disabled
hosted by Inanna Fairlady


[17:02] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. For those who don't know how these work, I introduce the topic, then we all discuss it. I have a whole bunch of knowledge about it - some my own experience, some from research into other peoples' experience - so if anyone has questions, ask me.

[17:02] Inanna Fairlady: Or rather, ask the group - and I'll answer if noone else can.

[17:03] Inanna Fairlady: My role is also to ensure that even the shyest subs get to speak - so if I give the floor to someone, please respect that. :)

[17:03] Inanna Fairlady: But other than that, it's okay to just blurt out what's on your mind.

[17:04] Inanna Fairlady: So... introduction to the topic. Well - why don't I do this slightly differently. What is disability. Anyone?

[17:04] Inanna Fairlady: What do you perceive disability to be?

[17:05] Darrian Dreamscape: disability for one person may not be for another person

[17:05] Pilar Raynier: disability can take on many forms ?

[17:05] Elentir Korhonen: nods.

[17:05] Inanna Fairlady nods to Darrian and Pilar. "Every disability is different, even if the diagnosis is the same. That's something that often surprises new doctors - and newly disabled people."

[17:06] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. If someone is sick, are they disabled?

[17:06] June Aljon: no they arent necessarily disable

[17:07] Muse Guardian: Inanna, not in the clinical sense...a disability is ongoing for prolonged length of time or permanently

[17:07] Inanna Fairlady: But they might be, June?

[17:07] June Aljon: well yes a disabled person can catcha cold

[17:07] Pilar Raynier: they may be disabled for the length of time the illness lasts ?

[17:07] Muse Guardian: but a cold is not a disability

[17:07] Inanna Fairlady: Muse: what about a prolonged or permanent illness? Something like fibromyalgia, or lupus, or hepatitis?

[17:07] June Aljon: no but a cold is being sick

[17:08] June Aljon: disability to me is someone with some sort of deficit that isnt likely to improve

[17:08] Pilar Raynier: to me sick is cold or flu Miss , those are illnesses

[17:08] Inanna Fairlady: An illness which reduces their ability to function?

[17:08] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. :)

[17:08] Muse Guardian: if it prevents normal functioning, reduces normal functioning along with other factors, it might be catagorized as a disability

[17:08] Inanna Fairlady nods. :)

[17:08] Pilar Raynier smiles

[17:09] June Aljon: if you are in bed sick with a cold you arent disabled even tho it might feel similar

[17:09] Elentir Korhonen: or differing ability. We're all different in some way.

[17:09] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. :)

[17:09] Inanna Fairlady: I think we're all close to the same page, then. How about mental disorders?

[17:09] Elentir Korhonen: and we may think we're healthy now, but just may not have a differing ability *yet*

[17:09] June Aljon: I guess you coudl say someone was temporarily disabled with a cold but that seems to cloud the issue

[17:09] Inanna Fairlady nods to both June and Elentir.

[17:09] Elentir Korhonen: Mental counts - cognative, ADHD, etc.

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady: I don't consider a cold to be a disability, I do consider fibromyalgia to be a disability.

[17:10] June Aljon: precisely

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady: But then, I have fibro. Along with a bunch of other shit.

[17:10] Elentir Korhonen: Fibro is big. Sorry to hear.

[17:10] June Aljon: so just becuase some is sick they arent necessarily disabled

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady: And I use that swear word *quite* intentionally.

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady: It SUCKS.

[17:10] Muse Guardian: Fibro is a big one

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady: Just to make things more fun, my domme is schizoaffective.

[17:10] Alley Whitfield: I have a close friend who has that. She is wiped out when it hits.

[17:10] Inanna Fairlady nods to Alley.

[17:10] June Aljon: and there are people with fibromyalgia that arent disabled

[17:11] Inanna Fairlady: Also correct, June. Even with the same diagnosis, the experience of disability differs.

[17:11] Alley Whitfield: But they are when they are in pain.
[17:11] Inanna Fairlady: Every disabled person is unique.

[17:11] Inanna Fairlady: And that, my friends, is where *we* are uniquely suited to help.

[17:11] Alley Whitfield: Try to tell that to insurance companies.

[17:11] Muse Guardian: yes, and for financial reasons even a functioning fibro person will be legally disabled

[17:11] Inanna Fairlady: Because ifi there's one thing that people into BDSM are good at, it's being inventive and adaptable.

[17:12] Inanna Fairlady nods to Alley and Muse. ::/

[17:12] Alley Whitfield: Exactly

[17:12] Alley Whitfield: Meditation helps

[17:13] Alley Whitfield: Able to relax when your in so much pain.

[17:13] Inanna Fairlady: So. We've covered what disability is - how do you think disability and BDSM intersect? How would you, as a domme or a sub, work with a disabled partner? Or handle your own disability? Any ideas?

[17:13] June Aljon: Celtic fans are booing their team on the way inot the locker room at half....GO CAVS

[17:13] Alley Whitfield: It's like reprograming the brain.

[17:13] Inanna Fairlady points to Alley. "YES. That's a good one. BDSM can help you learn to relax into pain."

[17:13] Deb Effingham: A lot of it, I think, has to do with communication, Inanna.

[17:13] Alley Whitfield: Meditation helps you to regroup.

[17:14] Alley Whitfield: heals the spirit

[17:14] Inanna Fairlady: One of the things my domme can do for me is put me into a subspace and let me feel protected, shielded, safe, while I'm having a high pain time.

[17:14] Alley Whitfield: and body

[17:14] June Aljon: so does love

[17:14] Inanna Fairlady: Agreed, Deb.

[17:14] Elentir Korhonen: Nods.

[17:15] Darrian Dreamscape: when in bdsm, yourlike in diferent world..sort of a getaway from everyda life

[17:15] June Aljon: leaving behind the every day troubles and being treated like anyone else also helps to escape pains and sorrows

[17:15] Alley Whitfield: Pain does bring you into another space. But your Mistress or Master is not always around when your body is giving out on you. Need to tools to help you along the way.

[17:15] Inanna Fairlady: Deb - I'll get back to communication, after we've worked on the meditation/subspace/domspace sort of topic. Communication is big, but so's this.

[17:16] Elentir Korhonen: Interesting.

[17:16] Inanna Fairlady: Yes. :)

[17:17] Pilar Raynier: subspace is hmmm another wonderful plane of existance (excuse sp please) it is a hmmm *happy* place for lack of better term

[17:17] Elentir Korhonen grins.

[17:18] Inanna Fairlady: It's a place where all inputs are simply sensations, for me.

[17:18] Alley Whitfield: But when you are already in extreme pain you need something to bring you down, from the pain, especially if its a disability.

[17:18] Alley Whitfield: You will be in no mood to play a scene.

[17:18] Inanna Fairlady: "focus on my voice" can help me do that, Alley.

[17:19] Alley Whitfield: Yes, I am a healer in rl, I know about voice manipulation.

[17:19] Pilar Raynier: but being in subspace one floats i guess ? one focus's on Master's / Mistress's voice and all become calm ... that is all that one can feel and hear

[17:19] Inanna Fairlady: Yes - when I'm in a bad state, it's not a time to actually do a scene. I'm not feeling sexy. And when my domme is in a manic state, a scene would be actively dangerous.

[17:19] Alley Whitfield: yes and if he is a loving Master he is in tune with your disability.

[17:19] Inanna Fairlady: There's all sorts of practicalities about BDSM and disability.

[17:20] Alley Whitfield: yes

[17:20] Inanna Fairlady: Yes. Lets segue from 'in tune with your disability' to Deb's 'communication' aspect of the topic, then we can go on to practicalities. :)

[17:21] June Aljon: communication is crucial in all relationships

[17:21] Alley Whitfield: very

[17:21] Inanna Fairlady: Deb, did you have anything to add about communication?

[17:21] Deb Effingham: Just that I think in managing any type of disability it's important to try to understand where your partner is at a point in time.

[17:22] Elentir Korhonen smiles at his girl.

[17:22] Elentir Korhonen: True, it's about the pair, not just the one.

[17:22] Deb Effingham: You need to know the ebb and flow of their pain, their mood, their NOW needs.

[17:22] Alley Whitfield: I found that after a while your Master and Mistress can read you feel you when your not at your best.

[17:23] Pilar Raynier: *nods* esp once they 'learn' to read how you have responded to a questions

[17:23] Elentir Korhonen: Yes!

[17:23] June Aljon: I learned a long time ago that safe, sane, and sensual bdsm basically means no unintentional pain

[17:24] Inanna Fairlady: June, that's a big one. Both my doms have learned to sort of .. work with whatever pains I am already in, and add their chosen pains to it to make a special sensation.

[17:24] Inanna Fairlady: It's no good, with me, trying to presume you're starting with a blank canvas. You have to work with what's already there.

[17:25] Elentir Korhonen: Sounds like a special Dom or two Inanna.

[17:25] Pilar Raynier: i think is the case for most to some degree ; once they admit it ?

[17:25] June Aljon: well Inanna is special

[17:25] Inanna Fairlady: Also, with a disabled sub, you can't assume that their reaction to a sensation is the same as yours. For me, for instance, even a mild clip or peg is a very strong sensation.

[17:25] Inanna Fairlady: Elentir, they are.

[17:26] Inanna Fairlady: June... you'll make me blush.

[17:26] Inanna Fairlady: Pilar: I think so.

[17:26] Inanna Fairlady: But then, I can't imagine being in NO pain.

[17:26] Inanna Fairlady: Okay - so what if it's the dom that's disabled?

[17:26] Alley Whitfield: Everyone is different, but you have to give your Mstr/Mistress time to get to know you.

[17:26] Pilar Raynier: but that all comes in time Inanna ; that They become intuned and know .... i am lucky and have been with my Master a long time ... sometimes i think He sees things coming before i do

[17:27] Alley Whitfield: It is a learning experience.

[17:27] Deb Effingham: Communication is still huge, either way. As a sub, we are charged with caring for our Doms every bit as much as They are with caring for us. Sometimes, they're in a place where all They need is a quiet night of holding us, not some big scene of drama.

[17:27] Inanna Fairlady: My domme takes me for my exercises. Some days, she'll turn to me and say 'did you know you haven't limped at all this walk?' other days, she'll say 'okay, we're turning around now. You're too tired'.

[17:27] June Aljon: it would be harder for a disabled Dom

[17:28] Inanna Fairlady nods to Deb.

[17:28] June Aljon: but not impossible

[17:28] Inanna Fairlady: June, I think that's where ingenuity comes nito it.

[17:28] Elentir Korhonen: Am I a lucky guy, or what?

[17:28] Inanna Fairlady: You're a lucky guy, Elentir.

[17:28] Elentir Korhonen: er, uh, I mean, yes, the Pair works as a unit.

[17:28] Pilar Raynier nods and smiles to Elentir Sir

[17:29] Deb Effingham blushes

[17:29] Inanna Fairlady: Okay.

[17:29] June Aljon: I agree, Im just saying from a practical standpoint, being a sub witha d isablity would b easier than being a Dom with a disablity

[17:29] Alley Whitfield: no its not. I know a DOM in a wheelchair has been with his slave for over 10 years, he didn't start out that way until a horrific car accident. But theya r working together.

[17:29] Inanna Fairlady: Alley - that's wonderful.

[17:29] Elentir Korhonen: The mind is the key romantic organ.

[17:29] Alley Whitfield: They had to go into counseling, but they are still together.
[17:30] June Aljon: its wonderful they are working things out

[17:30] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. I know every dom has a nightmare scenario. The one where the O-ring fails, or the cross breaks, and the sub is injured through the failure of a piece of the dom's equipment.

[17:30] Alley Whitfield: It wasn't easy, but they worked out the kinks. So it is possible.

[17:30] Elentir Korhonen: I wonder if people make up mentally or their limitations, as a blind person has better hearing.

[17:30] June Aljon: well that was my point

[17:31] June Aljon: I think thats a fallacy that the blind hear better

[17:31] Inanna Fairlady: I'm about to give you an even worse nightmare scenario - and I'm about to ask you all to help solve it.

[17:31] June Aljon: listens

[17:31] Pilar Raynier peeks up

[17:32] Inanna Fairlady: Your sub is beautiful, all bound up, helpless. The scene is going really well. Then ... you have a heart attack, or a stroke. Or a diabetic hypo or hyperglycemic attack. Or in some other way, are suddenly and unpredictably incapacitated.

[17:32] Inanna Fairlady: If you don't get help NOW, you will probably die.

[17:32] Inanna Fairlady: Your sub is right there. She could help you. IF.

[17:32] Inanna Fairlady: But she's all tied up.

[17:33] Inanna Fairlady: If you haven't done anything to consider how to handle it - you die, and she lies there helpless with your dead body next to her, knowing that if only, if only, you'd still be alive.

[17:33] Inanna Fairlady: There's the problem.

[17:33] Inanna Fairlady: Solutions, please.

[17:33] Elentir Korhonen: groans, not a good scenario!

[17:33] Inanna Fairlady: And believe me, it's a scarily real possibility.

[17:34] Inanna Fairlady: People who are apparently healthy have heart attacks and strokes all the time.

[17:34] Alley Whitfield: My Master in rl is diabetic, I have learned to read the signs when his sugar is low.

[17:34] Deb Effingham: Preplanning for disaster somehow. Bound, but with a way that the sub can release themselves in an emergency. Knots which give when they must.

[17:34] June Aljon: unfortunately the way you painted that its probably the way you painted that is it will end in some sort of tragedy

[17:34] Alley Whitfield: I feel him in more ways than one. hehe

[17:34] Chrissy Chemistry: you could arrange to have a friend call at a certain time not totally god because it might be to late but it is something

[17:34] Alley Whitfield: feed

[17:35] Pilar Raynier: to be honest , even though i would never touch them unless emergency , the release to my slip knots in my ropes are normally within grasp

[17:35] June Aljon: the solution probably would have to be to set up a third party

[17:35] June Aljon: who could help

[17:35] Elentir Korhonen: Interesting.

[17:35] Inanna Fairlady nods.

[17:35] Inanna Fairlady: I'm lucky. I'm in a poly relationship.

[17:35] Inanna Fairlady: We have a second press-button for our doorbell, that gives a different ring from the usual doorbell ring.

[17:35] Alley Whitfield: I was in a poly relationship for many years that is the ideal.

[17:36] Inanna Fairlady: And it's kept within my reach.

[17:36] Inanna Fairlady: Press that, and the other loves come and check on us.

[17:36] Alley Whitfield: Especially if your dealing with a major disability.

[17:36] Alley Whitfield: I can see how that would work better for everyone concerned.

[17:37] Inanna Fairlady: You could do the same thing with a pager, or a cell phone with ... bah, I can't think of the word. Numbers that call a particular number when pressed.

[17:37] Inanna Fairlady: Or, as Pilar and Deb said, ways that the sub COULD get out if they had to.

[17:37] Elentir Korhonen: speed dial.

[17:37] Inanna Fairlady: Thanks, Elentir.

[17:38] Elentir Korhonen: You are welcome.

[17:38] Inanna Fairlady: Darrian: no problem. Read this sectioni in the library once Keaira's got it up.

[17:38] Inanna Fairlady: Aphasia is a common symptom of fibro. :/

[17:39] Inanna Fairlady: For chronic conditions, as Alley implied earlier, the sub knowing the dom and being able to read (and feed!) them, is the ideal.

[17:39] Inanna Fairlady: But I think it's crucial to realise that the temporarily-able-bodied can become disabled suddenly and without warning, and to plan for it.

[17:40] Elentir Korhonen: Yes, it can hit anyone really.

[17:40] Deb Effingham nods

[17:40] Alley Whitfield: Yes indeed

[17:40] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. Having brought you all down, let's perk up and use our ingenuity. The practicalities of BDSM with the disabled!

[17:40] Inanna Fairlady: There's got to be more we can do that 'hey, walk backwards into this flogger ten times'. :)

[17:40] Elentir Korhonen: lol!

[17:41] Pilar Raynier giggles

[17:41] Alley Whitfield: mmm, well lets talk about the individual you can't feel from the waste down. That can be very challenging. But if you are in tune with each other you can work around it.

[17:41] Pilar Raynier: i am a firm believer in the mind and the role it plays in everything

[17:41] Alley Whitfield: waist

[17:42] Alley Whitfield: Yes the mind is the key to it all

[17:42] Elentir Korhonen: me nods at Pilar's comment.
.
[17:43] Pilar Raynier: keep the mind alive and stimulated and everyting just seems to find its niche and fall into place

[17:43] Pilar Raynier: my feeling anyways

[17:43] Alley Whitfield: Oh yesss!

[17:43] Inanna Fairlady nods. So with Alley's individual, you'd scene-set or mood-set just as with anyone else, get their lower body comfortably and safely placed, and .. concentrate on upper body sensation?

[17:43] Elentir Korhonen grins.

[17:43] Inanna Fairlady: Presuming that was the sub.

[17:44] Deb Effingham: If the connection is amazing with someone, you can make love without touching. The mind is HUGELY powerful!

[17:44] : I agree

[17:44] Elentir Korhonen: Well, that's what I want, with or without the extra hardware.

[17:44] : mental stimulation and imagination is key

[17:45] Alley Whitfield: Someone to say those key words, look into your eyes......set the scene.

[17:45] : I was just recently involved with a paraplegic

[17:45] Elentir Korhonen listens

[17:45] Inanna Fairlady nods to .

[17:47] Deb Effingham: How did the two of you maximize your relationship while working with the disability, ?

[17:47] : as long as you can set a scene and yor partner can imagine what you are trying to do, that is a major part

[17:47] : blushes

[17:47] Alley Whitfield: Just because your DOM doesn't feel from the waist down doesn't mean you can't satisfy his sadistic desires. smiles

[17:47] : narrows eyes, and what makes you think he was Dom

[17:47] Elentir Korhonen: Sounds like a good exercise for anyone.

[17:48] Pilar Raynier: so true Alley

[17:48] Alley Whitfield: Or a Mistress I don'tknow, or a sub

[17:48] Elentir Korhonen grins.

[17:48] : in this case i was the one with more experience, he had none

[17:48] : an injury prevented any contact

[17:49] Alley Whitfield: If the sub is in the chair doesn't mean you can't satisfy her need for control or pain. It can be done.

[17:49] : so it was very difficult as he was shy and embarrassed

[17:50] Inanna Fairlady: Do you have any ideas you can share without getting too personal for your/his comfort?

[17:50] : let me rephrase

[17:50] Alley Whitfield: it's something that needs to be discussed. Back to communication

[17:50] : he is a virgin RL/SL

[17:50] : was shot in the war, and never had the opportunity

[17:51] Elentir Korhonen: Sighs.

[17:51] : the entire scenario needed to be set,

[17:51] : he had to use his imagination

[17:51] : 100%

[17:52] : as to what the pleasure would be like

[17:52] Deb Effingham: That must have been a big challenge, . I mean...how does one imagine a sensation before they've had a chance to experience it.

[17:52] Inanna Fairlady: Not easy at all

[17:52] : so the RP needed to be very detailed

[17:52] Elentir Korhonen: I admire that.

[17:52] Deb Effingham: Hugely....admire that.

[17:52] : blushes deeply

[17:52] Alley Whitfield: Hats off to you darling

[17:53] : i still care about him, yet, things did not work out

[17:53] Inanna Fairlady: It happens sometimes.

[17:53] : sighs

[17:53] Keaira Karas: 's a very special person :)

[17:53] Inanna Fairlady offers hugs

[17:53] : smiles

[17:53] Elentir Korhonen: Speachless.

[17:53] Deb Effingham: I'm sure the experience made both of your lives richer, , regardless the outcome.

[17:54] Pilar Raynier: as long as the imagination is alive and things set forth .... even if not experienced i believe all have ideas on what it would be like ?

[17:54] Darrian Dreamscape puts a arm around

[17:54] Inanna Fairlady: Yes, I think so.

[17:54] : yes he did

[17:54] Pilar Raynier: , that is just wonderful !!!!

[17:54] : leans on Darrian

[17:54] Elentir Korhonen: What a special gift to be there at that time to give that experience to someone.

[17:55] : i just feel it should have been someone that could return his love

[17:55] : not just someone he trusted with his disability

[17:55] Pilar Raynier: but i am sure that you helped him open up a little ? grow just a little ?

[17:55] : shrugs

[17:55] : i hurt him

[17:56] Inanna Fairlady: : I've been doing research on this. Many, many disabled people turn to escorts for their first experiences of physical love.

[17:56] Deb Effingham: I would think his knowing that you cared for him enough to try and work through that with him was HUGE for him.

[17:56] Elentir Korhonen: Yes Deb.

[17:56] : yes, we still talk, but it is very uncomfortable for him

[17:56] Pilar Raynier: i am sure that you also made him happy

[17:56] Inanna Fairlady: Partly because they feel that escorts are the only people who will look past the disability and see the possibility for sexual desire. (not even 'see the person', but 'see the desire'.)

[17:56] : to a point

[17:56] : until i walked away

[17:57] : Anna, i got to know him as a person

[17:57] : and he me

[17:57] Keaira Karas: But the gift you gave him is still with him

[17:57] Inanna Fairlady: Then you did him a great good.

[17:57] : shrugs

[17:57] Elentir Korhonen: Well said Keaira.

[17:57] : and broke his heart

[17:57] Inanna Fairlady: Yes, walking away hurt him - but you saw both the desire and the person, and once he heals from the broken heart, he'll benefit fromthat.

[17:57] : eventually

[17:57] Deb Effingham: Disability or not, , heartbreak is a part of every person's life.

[17:57] Elentir Korhonen: It has been written it's better to love and lose.

[17:57] Inanna Fairlady: We all break hearts while searching for our partners. :( We can't help that.

[17:57] : i know

[17:57] : trust me i know

[17:58] Alley Whitfield: My son is a virgin because of a disability. He will never experience sex with a woman and it breaks my heart. I know he will find that special lady one day. It's not all about the sex but the mind.

[17:58] : that was the reason i could not stay, i didnt want to hurt him.

[17:58] Keaira Karas: Some relationships don't work. It's nobody's fault. and he knows you didn't leave him because of his disability. Even though he's hurt, I bet he's left with a little more hope for a future relationship

[17:58] : exatly

[17:59] Inanna Fairlady: Alley: he may never experience penis-in-vagina sex, but as long as some part of his body has physical sensation, he can experience sex.

[17:59] : kea, his words "you are the third woman to break my heart I am done"

[17:59] Inanna Fairlady: Sex can be a kiss on the cheek, if the partners choose it so.

[17:59] : true

[18:00] Alley Whitfield: We shall see he is only 21 and a career oriented animal. He pushes it aside.

[18:00] Keaira Karas: we all say that when we're hurt. Don't dismiss what you gave him

[18:00] Inanna Fairlady: And : if he thinks he's going to find his partner within 3 girlfriends, he's being very unrealistic.

[18:00] Alley Whitfield: Yes

[18:00] : shrugs

[18:00] : he wanted me

[18:00] : still does deep down

[18:01] Alley Whitfield: It si apparent he loves you.

[18:01] : i cant give him what he needs

[18:01] Deb Effingham: Keep your head high, and your heart light. You did a good thing by sharing that part of his life and he was lucky to have you in it.

[18:01] : sighs

[18:01] Alley Whitfield: What a treasure you are dear.

[18:01] : we are frieds

[18:01] : we talk

[18:01] Inanna Fairlady: Alley: he probably buys into the 'disabled people are asexual' cultural thing. All you can do is try to help him fight the cultural bias that says that. :(

[18:01] Elentir Korhonen: Very hard Alley. , hard on you, not just him. It's not an easy role. You are both lucky.

[18:01] : that is all

[18:01] : no he does not

[18:01] Deb Effingham: That's a lot.

[18:02] : he actually play SL to "live vicariously"

[18:02] Alley Whitfield: He works too hard, stockbroker financial planner at 18. I worry

[18:02] Deb Effingham smiles, "So, he's the same as 80% or more of the population here."

[18:02] Alley Whitfield: He is pushing it down.

[18:02] Alley Whitfield: yes

[18:02] Inanna Fairlady: And because you're his mother, you can't even realistically take him to a sex store and help him pick out porn and a sensation toy! Maybe there's a cousin or a best friend or something you can conspire with to do that.

[18:03] Elentir Korhonen nods to Alley and . - and chuckles at Deb's thought.

[18:03] Alley Whitfield: It is dangerous for him to even get erect.

[18:03] : shifts uncomfortbly at teh attention

[18:03] Alley Whitfield: It hurts

[18:03] Elentir Korhonen: wow Alley, bummer.

[18:03] Inanna Fairlady: Ack. And will his doctor help with that in any way?

[18:04] Alley Whitfield: He has been to Mayo etc. with all themoney he has and no one has a cure.

[18:04] Darrian Dreamscape holds comforting her

[18:04] : smiles weakly

[18:04] Alley Whitfield: Believe me he has tried everything.

[18:05] Deb Effingham: Has he been to counseling, Alley?

[18:05] Inanna Fairlady sighs. I'm very sorry, Alley.

[18:05] Deb Effingham: If he can't do anything about the physical, it's even more important that he take care of the emotional/psychological.

[18:05] Alley Whitfield: My heart and soul goes out to him. No and I am a psych major go figure that one.

[18:05] Elentir Korhonen: Well, my father lost his mojo when they radiated his prostate for cancer. But has had years of special intimicy w/ his SO.

[18:06] Elentir Korhonen: so it's not about the stuff you see on TV!

[18:06] Deb Effingham smiles

[18:06] Inanna Fairlady: Exactly, Elentir!

[18:06] Inanna Fairlady: As the lesbians and gays know, it's NOT all about penis-in-vagina.

[18:06] Alley Whitfield: As I said its not about the sex its the intimacy. The love, giving and understanding

[18:06] Elentir Korhonen: of course, we all want both hot stuff and deep emotion. But if I had to pick.....

[18:06] Inanna Fairlady: As we know, too!

[18:06] Deb Effingham: Let's face it, physical sexual intimacy is fantastic, but, nothing compares to the emotional connection between two.

[18:06] Inanna Fairlady: Yes. deep emotion wins for me, too.

[18:06] Alley Whitfield: Bingo!

[18:06] Elentir Korhonen right on Deb.

[18:07] Deb Effingham squeezes Your hand

[18:07] Elentir Korhonen: Is it normal to have such sweet love fest in a BDSM sim? This is amazing!

[18:07] Alley Whitfield: hehe

[18:08] Keaira Karas: our discussions have brought us all closer

[18:08] Inanna Fairlady: I think it's good.

[18:08] Deb Effingham smiles and nods

[18:08] Darrian Dreamscape: do you think the disabled are more willing to accept love than others?

[18:08] : Not all of them

[18:08] Darrian Dreamscape: to make them feel better inside

[18:08] Deb Effingham: First and foremost, BDSM is about trusting, caring and bonding...bondage comes later. *giggles*

[18:08] Inanna Fairlady: I think the disabled are about the same as the TAB. Some who are, some who aren't, some middling.

[18:09] Keaira Karas: lol Deb so true

[18:09] : some push us away to prevent us from hurting them

[18:09] : and from seeing the real them

[18:09] Inanna Fairlady: BUT one thing that is true: orgasm and subspace and domspace and the like trigger endorphins that help against pain.

[18:09] Inanna Fairlady: AND increase blood flow which can helpwith healing.

[18:10] Elentir Korhonen: hehe

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: And the experience of being deeply loved and cared about helps us psychologically.

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: Ori: that's true of some TAB as well.

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady: Oh, sorry, you weren't here when I explained that acronym. Temporarily Able-Bodied.

[18:10] Elentir Korhonen: hehe, I love that one.

[18:10] Inanna Fairlady grins.

[18:12] Inanna Fairlady: Does anyone want to discuss the sheer practicalities? Or do you think communication, and access to wedges and pillows and suspension devices and harnesses, and the wide range of pain/sensation tools available to disabled doms, will do the trick?

[18:13] Darrian Dreamscape: some of the devices can help the person stand whereas they wouldnt otherwise


[18:13] Inanna Fairlady nods.

[18:14] Inanna Fairlady: And a dom who can't flog may be able to candle, or use clamps and clips...

[18:15] Inanna Fairlady: If you can't tie knots in rope, maybe that sticks-to-itself latex can work for you. Or even simple cotton bandaging and medical tape.

[18:15] Deb Effingham: Or instruct their sub to do their desire.

[18:15] Inanna Fairlady: Yes.

[18:15] Elentir Korhonen: smiles.

[18:16] Inanna Fairlady: Hm. Anyone got anything else they want to talk about? I *do* have one last problem/puzzle, but it's one I have no solution for. If you already have a problem that makes finding the right medical team hard, what do you do about fnding a kink-friendly medical team?

[18:16] Inanna Fairlady: But ... I just can't solve that one myself. :(

[18:16] Elentir Korhonen laughs.

[18:17] Deb Effingham: Put the question out to a local BDSM community group. Just a hunch that you might find one or two physicians "in the house". *smiles*

[18:17] Keaira Karas: that's a good idea Deb

[18:17] Darrian Dreamscape: that would be tough asking a doctor is he is into bdsm

[18:18] Elentir Korhonen: yes!

[18:18] Inanna Fairlady: I think Deb's trick is best.

[18:19] Inanna Fairlady: Okay. Anything else anyone wants to discuss? Anything anyone wants to expand on?

[18:19] Inanna Fairlady: cause I think that if not, we've pretty much exhausted the topic

[18:19] Inanna Fairlady: Well ... not *exhausted* it. It's a huge topic. But we've given us all food for thought.

[18:20] Keaira Karas: I jsut want to say that we've been doing these discussion for awhile now. none have been this emotional and i've never felt so much compassion and carring among the participatns

[18:20] Inanna Fairlady blushes

[18:20] Elentir Korhonen: Was amazing. Truely.

[18:20] Deb Effingham: It was fantastic.

[18:20] Keaira Karas: it helps jsut to know we're not alone

[18:20] Muse Guardian: Very impressive to hear this level of involvement and concern in bdsm

[18:20] Darrian Dreamscape: so true Kea

[18:20] Keaira Karas nods

[18:21] Inanna Fairlady: Disability will affect everyone. Even if you're lucky enough not to be/become disabled yourself, you will have at LEAST one disabled close friend or relative in your lifetime.

[18:21] Elentir Korhonen: I think that's part of the gig. We have to to have each other's back to some extent.

[18:21] Inanna Fairlady: Unless you're a one-in-a-million.

[18:21] Keaira Karas: That's how it's supposed to be Elentir Sir

[18:22] Elentir Korhonen: indeed.

[18:22] Inanna Fairlady: And I think there's no reason for the disabled to be excluded from sex and sensuality, even from kink.

[18:22] Keaira Karas: absolutely right Inanna

[18:22] Inanna Fairlady: Even someone like Alley's son for whom the erotic can be dangerous, is entitled to the intimate!

[18:22] Deb Effingham: Yes.

[18:23] Keaira Karas: there's sex all the time without intimacy. I'll take teh intimacy and the companionship and the support and love over the sex any day

[18:23] Inanna Fairlady: (I do hope, Alley, that the doctors can come up with a way for the erotic to not be actively *dangerous* for him. My best wishes for that.)

[18:23] Deb Effingham nods, "Completely agree, Keaira."

[18:23] : signs to Anna, 'wonderful topic very well presented'

[18:23] Alley Whitfield: Yes, if only he would talk to me about it. But he is a closed book at the moment. *sigh* I am the only one who knows about it.

[18:23] Inanna Fairlady: Thank you.